Bye Bye NAM, Hello Realpolitik!

Layman, nicely elucidated.
With respect to kashmir, article 340 renders it different. There is no restriction on the citizens of the union becoming a resident of any part of the union (one of our basic rights)except for tribal areas AND kashmir. This may have been a moral high ground to take. However, it also has kept kashmir separate in a very real sense.

Re: # 367
You forgot the historical aspect of this equation.

US was founded by anglo-saxons, and all the confedracies were similar in their makeup.
they had ideological differences over adminsitrationa and Religion etc.

India in 1947 was made up of principalities not Unions.

That is why Pakistan seperated from India.
That is why Hindus wants to recognise Sikhs and Jains as part of Hindu religion.

Re: # 367

good post

layman:

Thanks for the important distinction between Union and Federation that I had overlooked. But India still is a federal structure with defined powers for states and the Centre.

#312 dost-mittar:
Correction - India is not a federation of states, but a UNION of states. There is nothing sacrosanct about the states - they are just administrative groupings of territory - and can be chopped and changed as per people`s needs, as has happened since Independence. We started out with Presidencies, then had linguistic states formed, and every few years a new state is being created from existing states - remember Jharkhand, Chattisgarh, Uttaranchal in the last decade alone? Whereas a federation implies pre-existing states getting together, as in the US or from some perspectives the EU.

The North Eastern states including Manipur were formed by splitting them from Assam.

On top of this, India has been creating autonomous areas that have more freedom from their state, such as the Darjeeling area governed by the Darjeeling Autonomous Council in West Bengal.

India is a Union of states (and union territories!), there is no right of ``self-determination`` when it comes to secede. Unlike the US federation, where states have their own constitution and the right to secede (though we all know how well this right was respected in the US Civil War).

In a nation of a billion+ people, and with the extent of diversity that India has, there will always be a million or two (or more!) who will want to secede at any point of time. There will always be a state, or part of a state (remember even in J&K, the problem is only in the K valley not the rest of the state) that wants to secede. If at all India is to survive as a nation, there can be no secession be it of little Manipur or large Maharashtra. The only way forward is to ensure that all Indians have equal rights, full freedom of culture, religion, language etc, and equally share in economic and social development. Most secession movements as well as naxal movements in India can be traced to a failure of one of the above.

hamidm:
``so what the heck are we arguing about ? .........``

not anymore. i thought you were opposed to using backburners. :-)

Hamid
//.....kashmir needs to be put on the back burner ....//

With due respect hamid mian - you can put kashmir on the back burner ....or up your back-side - we really don`t care..... just stop sending jihadis this way - and we will all live happily ever after :)

Well lookie here... India should refuse permission for the helicopters to fly close to the no fly zone near the LoC(hey..they might discover the super-duper IFF frequency)..

Pakistan Quake Helicopters May Be Grounded Because of No Funds

Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The United Nations may have to ground helicopters ferrying supplies to hundreds of thousands of survivors of the Pakistan earthquake still stuck in remote valleys because of a lack of funds, an official said.

Flights may be ended within two weeks, just as the Himalayan winter sets in, World Food Program Regional Director for the Middle East, Central Asia and Eastern Europe Amir Abdulla said, according to a statement carried on the UN News Service.

Maybe if you used some of the money you finance the LeT with....

Some Victims Untreated Three Weeks After Quake
By DAVID ROHDE

PATTIKA, Pakistan, Oct. 28 - On Thursday, Dr. Ali Shehada took a short hike outside this mountain town to explore the disturbing reports from his patients: Nearly three weeks after an earthquake devastated northern Pakistan, injured women still lay in nearby villages with untreated wounds.

#359 by Romair on October 31, 2005 9:00pm PT


Kashmir needs to be de-militarized,


Or what? You`ll continue to spend a disproportionate amount on your military...money that will be used not to ``liberate`` Kashmir but to enslave the paki junta?


So what is the issue in this? Certain people are unwillilng to de-militarize Kashmir. It has the most soldiers per sq. ft. in the world, by a gigantic margin.


The real issue is the inability of your army to do anything about it...


Get the soldiers out, so the locals can sleep peacefully.


The locals are free to leave for a place where they can sleep peacefully..

Romair:
``Kashmir needs to be de-militarized, from all sides and left to itself, for a decade, or more. People on both sides of the LOC should be allowed to meet as and when they want, since they are brothers and sisters. And no side should make any ridiculous statement about the place, i.e. it belongs to India or belongs to Pakistan, or we will accept this solution, but not that solution.............``

I do not think that this is what Anil, hamidm and I meant. You are suggesting a course of action rather than an open issue. What they and I are saying is that let the status quo remain and let people hold on to their position - namely India maintaining that Pakistan is in illegal position in Azad Kashmir and North while Pakistan maintaining that Indian occupation of its Kashmir is illegal and try to live like normal neighbours otherwise, just as Taiwanese and Chinese or doing or Greeks and Cypriots are doing. The only change it would require is for all civilian non-violence sponsored by one country against the other to end. If this leads an end to internal insurgency in Indian Kashmir, it would automatically lead to the end of massive military presence there.

In other words, when someone says that we should not do this or than until the Kashmir issue is resolved, the obvious answer would ``What has Kashmir got to do with it?``

Re: # 359

Hi Romair:

Let Musharaff and Man Mohan Singh try for a solution. If nothing comes out, then this generation should leave it ``open`` without any condition, and march forward toward a greater economic block and a free market of 1.7 billion people. This will make it the world`s largest free market, and economic union. Let the rest be done by your kids generation, who would have been immersed in the economic free market for one-generation. They might find a solution as I said earlier over a cup of coffee in Srinagar and Muzzafarabad. If the economic free market is allowed to flourish for one generation, without any conflicts, I am certain, the solution will be found by those running Muzzafrabad and Srinagar, and not by those running Delhi or Islamabad.

You have to prepared to let it go, Romair. There is nothing wrong in acknowledging that mine and even your generation will not be able to find a solution, if Musharaff and Man Mohan Singh fail. Since neither war nor terrorism will be tolerated and peaceful solution is deadlocked. May be two Kashmiris first among themselves and later they should go to Islamabad and Delhi and demand acceptance of the solution. For this approach neither need Paksitani and Indian government. India, I know Indian Kashmiri can go on public campaign to win over rather than attack.

Anil



Anil

Re: # 358

Hamidm Sahib:

I fully understood what ``open`` means. It should be left like Turkish and Greek Cypriot issue. Now Greek, Cypress already in EU, and Turkey would soon be in EU. This experience could guide South Asia`s yuong generation. They might find a peaceful solution within the larger framework of economic block, with free movement of people, profits and capital. I have visited the place where Switzerland, Germany and France meet. This area has very interesting history. In fact Basel, Switzerland`s airport is right at the border, and customs is on the French side, and entrance is on the Swiss side. They had told me it was possible after a historic agreement between France and Switzerland in 60`s. Now if you drive thru this beautiful part of Europe you would not even feel that they are two separate countries, or nation-states.

Anil

Anil #356: ``agree with you too, and also wonder what is the issue then?``

Kashmir needs to be de-militarized, from all sides and left to itself, for a decade, or more. People on both sides of the LOC should be allowed to meet as and when they want, since they are brothers and sisters. And no side should make any ridiculous statement about the place, i.e. it belongs to India or belongs to Pakistan, or we will accept this solution, but not that solution.............

So what is the issue in this? Certain people are unwillilng to de-militarize Kashmir. It has the most soldiers per sq. ft. in the world, by a gigantic margin. And too many people make too many statements about the place, due to domestic poltical pressures, which are not needed at the moment, i.e. No boundary changes, or Yes boundary changes etc.

So if every side could keep its mouth shut on Kahsmir for a while. Get the soldiers out, so the locals can sleep peacefully. And leave the place alone, and let people move openly, it will end up on the backburner, automatically, in a nature manner. If people want to put it on the backburner to close the issue, once and forever, through military force, then I am not sure if the term backburner is correct.........

Re: # 356

anil,

............ the difference might be that i would like to see the kashmir issue kept ``open`` like macao, hong kong, gibraltar, palestine, cyprus, bosnia, kosovo or taiwan whereas a lot of indians would like to consider it ``closed``.......... who knows how all these issues are eventually going to be settled, but there is no point in shedding innocent blood in vain ....... sometimes these things have to run their course ............ for example, i don`t think anyone doubts that eventually taiwan will merge into china, but the chinese are not pushing the issue because they know that they don`t have the right cards (yet) .........the world has accepted their position in principle and it is a matter of time before they get what they want ............... in the mean time they are more than happy with the status quo and taiwanese businesss men are also happy as they continue to invest billions of dollars in the mainland ........ unfortunately desis are ... well ... different ............also, the chinese don`t have to contend with religious animosity and a thousand years of bad blood ............

Re: # 133
To: rsridhar
re: #120 by Ordinary_Muslim

This is what I wrote: (Barring it`s failure in Tamil-land, it has a near total record of successfully grabbing territory and walking off with it - no questions asked.)
To which you replied: ``Tamil Nadu is still a part of India.``

Try thinking outside the box. In the eighties, the Tamil enclave in Sri Lanka escaped joining the Indian orbit after Tamil militants took on the IPKF. It`s unfortunate that you have to be taught your own history.

You asked: ``Do they teach you Geography in Madrassas?``
Look at your post and tell me: Do they teach you manners in India?

Sincerely,
Ordinary_Muslim

Re: # 355

Hamidm Sahib:

``........ i agree with you that the army has raped and pillaged pakistan and continues to do so .......... ``

How Pakistanis treat their Army and how their Army treats Pakistan and Pakistani is Pakistani`s business.

and,

``i also agree that kashmir needs to be put on the back burner as an ``open issue``........... so what the heck are we arguing about ? ......... ``

I agree with you too, and also wonder what is the issue then? Other than may be people like to hear their own voices, and read their own words.

Anil