Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi RanaRansher

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People should respect and learn from history and not seek to ``correct`` it by ``undoing`` things. And taking sides on a purely religious issue like this is, well, in the least unsecular. How far back is back afterall ?

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--One of the strongest arguments I made against the temple construction was

that when Babar broke the temple, India was NOT a secular country but when

some Hindus broke the Majsid then India WAS a secular country. So what the

latter did was illegal and hence they were wrong.

However in the past couple of years the concept of ``Reconciliation`` has been

in vogue. E.g.:

1)Truth and Reconciliation Commission in S. Africa for crimes against blacks

during apartheid.

2)Families of Nazi Victims getting money back from Swiss banks despite

inadequate proof of ownership

3)Japan apologizing to S. Korea for using their women as comfort women in

the Korean war.

4)Debate in the U.S. about compensating blacks for slavery.

5) General Pinochet of Argentina facing Crimes Against Humanity for his

brutal repression of political dissidents in Argentina.

6) Pope close to apologizing for the Spanish Inquisition

(http://www.geocities.com/iberianinquisition/)

All the above have ONE thing in common. One group of people was victimized

by another group on the basis of their skin color, ethnicity, nationality,

religion or political beliefs. In fact #6 is similar to what happened in

India, simply replace Islam with Catholics and Hindus with Jews.

If you are opposed to the above, then I can understand your stance on the

temple issue.

Otherwise, I think true healing only takes place once the symbols of oppression are removed, be it the Confederate flag in the US or the Babri majsids and its` like in India.

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Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi Reply #: 1

ali1

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Dont worry Mona, the demolition of the mosque in Mathura is also the national will of Indian people very much like the demolition of Babri Mosque. How can the birthplace of krishna be less important than the birthplace of rama? If some mosques are defiling their birthplaces then these must go. If Indian muslims have a problem with the demolition then they must go too! 5000 thousand muslims killed for ayodhya, another 5000 for mathura, hey!! whats the big deal?

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-- Ali1, you have always been one to shoot first and ask questions later.

I ask you and all other muslims to answer one question: Say Israel goes crazy and demolishes the DOme of the Rock Mosque and replaces it with a synagogue. Over the years, Palastinie gets possession of Jerusalem. Would any of you support the synagogue over the mosque ?

And Ali1, the demand is only at 3 very sacred places for hindus. These palces find mention in texts that are over a 1000 years old. So please don`t try to misrepresent them by saying every majsid in India is contoversial and needs to go.

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Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi Reply #: 23

pmishra2

Well said.

As I read in indiat-today, secularism is a 2 way street. Its about time muslims start practising what they expect from the majority community which is tolerance.

A good start would be for one of the gulf states to adopt a secular constitution. Let muslims first practise secularisim while they are in a majority before expecting the same when they are in the minority.

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Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi Reply #: 20

scout

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...better yet, why stop at birth place?

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-- Because Scout, we are compromising. The VHP has only asked for 3 places even though the number of temples that were destroyed, desecrated, converted into mosques run in the thousands.

We don`t want to dig up every unfair harm that happened to us during the time of the not so tolerant mughal regime.

However these 3 places are as sacred to us as the Mosques at Mecca and Medina and the Dome of the Rock is to Muslims.

So please don`t make the argument look ridiculous by putting in stts, such as ``when does it stop ?``

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An International Failure Reply #: 6

vanguard

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The constitutions may have the words ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan`` but there was nothing as such Islamic about them. Pakistan has been floundering in its foreign policy and number of other issues since its inception, but that has nothing to do with Islam or Islamic values.

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-- Sale of alcholic beverages provides a valuable source income to the govt. in the form of excise duty. Wonder why the beleagured provinces of Pakistan don`t sell alchol.... could it be becuase Pakistan IS an Islamic country and alchol IS prohibited in Islam.. hence in Pakistan.

-- Pakistan`s interests lie in better trade relations with India. We can supply most of Pakistan`s industrial needs for 1/4 of what Pakistan pays to import them from overseas. India is hated cause its NOT Islamic and hence cannot control a state which is predominantly muslim.

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If you read the history after 1947, the country was being run by beaurucrats, feudals and army men who were secular in their thinking (infidel by todays fundamentalist standards) running the country on secular footings. It is still being run by them but gradually after 50 years of failures, the religious zealots are promoting the Islamic values as a recipe for success and pushing for their incorporation in all spheres of life. The result might be a failure as with the case of Hudood Ordinance but that will not be due to the Islamic values.

Because values are not the cause of failure. Rather whether the systems in place can be adapted to the changing values determines the workability.

When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 192

TriIlium

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Dont try to sneak in your idols in surreptitiously as SYMBOLS.Symbols are accepted by non idolworshippers.Symbols are non figurative representation whereas IDOLS are close to true REPRESENTATION of the object of worship.

If human like anatomy or features is worshiped it ismeant to be a SUBSTITUTE or REPRESENTATION close to truth as possible .

``

-- As I am unsure about your background I do not want to make presumptions about what you know or don`t know about Sanatan Dharm or what people refer to as Hinduism.

Its prime characteristic is that its not monolethic in nature. Some believe that God has no form, and others feel that he does. The latter choose to represent his form in different ways, based upon historical/mythological descriptions.

Thier belief is however in the diety represented by the object, not the object itself. A flat, smooth and black stone (about the size of a fist) is called Saligram. It represents Lord Shiv. And it does not look like how he is depicted in idols.

The Bhakti movement in the 8th century revived the idea that God is more concerned about eh inner emotions of his devotees rather than the rituals they perform. A logical consequence of this was that as long as a person was frim in his belief, he could find God in any object.

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 195

DRUMZ

``

Its apparent that a lot of the symbols/idols (depending on perspective) used by hindus have specific meanings. Krishna for example is shown as both glorious and in a Kali-like shape to emphasize her negative qualities (showing that she encompasses the ALL +/-)

Same holds true for the Black stone its both a symbol and an idol, depending on WHO is interpreting it...

``

-- Drumz, you are partially correct. But just look at your own description. You mentioned that the idol of Kali represents the negative attributes.

Trillium would be correct, if there was a particular stone and only that stone that was held sacred. That would then justify that its truly an idol, that is being worshipped and not the idea behind the idol.

In comparison, any person can put there lines on a smooth black stone and that stone then becomes symbolic of Lord Shiv.

The concept is quite similar to that of money. If you look at it, its paper. But our belief in its value makes its valuable.

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 146

shankar

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Right on dude....!:) And we worship penisis & vagina`s & we like to sing & dance & engage in harmless colorful cultural traditions that most of us dont know what the hell they mean. And we find it goddamned honorable! O yeah--I forget to mention--some of us hindus think its a lot of fun & entertainment. Hey what ever turns us on!

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-- Perhaps your imagination is getting the better of you. For outsiders we worships stones and rocks but for us those are symbolic of our concept of God. Just like the flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth but it is symbolic of a set of ideas that we hold dear.

When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 115

priya321

``

I have been to church almost every other week for as long as i can remember. I have been to masjid atleast once a month for ages, and i also go to a temple atleast once or twice a month. My parents were not as open to other religions, but they have never stopped me from going to any of these places of even reading the kuran and bible.

``

-- Its intersting that you bring this up... but I think its the norm is a most Hindu families. My parents are quite religous as am I, but I don`t think they have ever stopped me from going to a church or a mosque.

I think the mulitiplicity of sects in hinduism itself has made Hindus more accepting to different beliefs. Plus the Bhakti movement of the 8th century and reformers like Swami Vivekanand stressed that devotion towards God was more important than rituals. Hence wether you call God Ram or Allah, it is your love that counts.

My school in Delhi has the largest church in Delhi and many times I would go there and spend a quite momement after heading back.

IN fact in a 1 mile radius of the church there exsists a Gurudwara, a Hanuman temple and a mosque (right across the temple).

I have been to all but the mosque.... although that was more to respect the feelings of muslims who might think that I desecrated their my mosque...

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 109

jay

That was hilarious :).

Although its no fun when people like YLH do not bite the bait....

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 52

dost-mittar

That joke about the secret of a successful marriage was one of the funniest I have read.

Thanks for posting it...

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Reply #: 49

Zafar Al-Talib

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Hai! Bite your tongue! As a devout Dillivaalaa I must contest this. (And Bombay aur culture? Yeh tho oxymoron hua.)

``

--Oops, I forgot Zafar, that you too were from delhi. And i admit that bombay and culture don`t go hand in hand. :)

I had almost forgotten about the Ramlila plays that we did as kids. I remember in my pre-school I had to dress up as a monkey to fight the ``Rakshish``. There was always the inital fight about who became the monkey and who became the bad guys.

On the day of the Ramleela, I was pretty enthuastic about it until i reached the stage and then I got stage fright. My mom had to literally push me on to the stage ! oh yes... those were the days.

Its too bad that despite having my ancestral house in Ballimaran, I never really lived there. Consequently I was never able to experience the festivities of EID. My next door neighbours (in Malcha marg) are muslims and they would always send Biryani and Korma on the ``meat Eid`` and Firni on the ``sweet Eid`` :). But that was the extent of my exposure to Eid.

There was a short story in my hindi class called, ``Hamid ka Chimta``, where this small muslim boy forgoes toys for a iron chimta that he gifts to his grandmother so that she does not burn her fingers while cooking chappatis.

In that story the author vividly describes the festivities on Id day... and that is why i wanted to experience it for once...

maybe one day....

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Farzana, the more I read your articles and your replies (like the one to Ali), the more I want to know you.

Its amazing, because you are probably the first muslim I know, who is so radically different from all my muslims I have known till now.

Your writings are capable of so much amplitude. I hate your guts sometimes and I want to hug you at other times.

This Diwali article shows that your upbringing was probably in a family which was confident about their identity, as muslims. I say so, because I know a lot of muslims parents would make it a point to ensure that thier kids do not participate in Diwali festivities.

Plus the B`bay culture is probably the most cosmopolitan in India. In Delhi, people are more conservative and consequently more close minded.

Well, I just wanted to say that keep on writing because wether I agree with you or I don`t, you always make me think.

A HAPPY (BELATED) DIWALI TO ALL CHOWKIE (you too Ali1).

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When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Farzana, you certainly brought back some cherised memories. Life was so much better when we were kids.

I still remember going with a large group of friends to the local park where they would burst the effigies of Ravan. Dusherra marked the begining of the Diwali season for my friends and I.

On our way back we would buy the first installment of crackers. Typically they would be the small ``snake`` tablets. These tiny black pellets would become long strings, once lit.

We would then graduate to the small ``Hydro`` bombs.

We would typically bury them in the ground (making sure that the fuse did not touch the mud) and wait to see the size of the crater. The bigger the crater, the better the bomb. Another variation of this was blowing the bottom of a tin box. Typically the box would get launched vertically in the air, and when it came down, the bottom of the box would be missing.

My friends consisted of kids in the neighbourhood who came from different backgrounds. Some were kids of drivers and domestic helpers while others were the sons of industralists. However, in the play ground we were all one.

Diwali was big in our house as almost all our friends and family members would come to our house to celebrate. It would take a couple of hours for all the fire works to get done. My friends and I would start with rockets. Then came the parachute rockets and then the fancier fire works. By this time my dad would be telling us to wrap things up, and this meant burning all the ammo asap.

The finale was usually the buring of the bid ``Laris``, small firecrackers joined by a large fuse. I remember by dad getting one which was 1 Lakh ``laris``. We spread that on the road (as the ground was moist) and it would take about 10 minutes to finally finish.

Once that got done, we would head back inside for food and cards. Diwali night was one of the few nights when I would get to play cards with real money.

All that changed, last time when i went back. I wanted to get crackers but no one was there to burn them with. I ran into one of my friends, who was a driver at the US embassy, in Delhi. When I met him, he was not sure wether he should shake my hand or do a salaam. It was almost that time, education and the norms of ``society`` had made an invisible wall between us.

Another friend, with whom I spent countless hours exploring the Delhi ridge, was now too ``old`` to burn crackers. He was hard at work, trying to woo the Russian diplomats` daughters, who seem to roam around our colony in large numbers.

I was in India for Diwali after a gap of 7 years.... but it was already as if a life time had passed. Everyone had moved ahead, but I.

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In Search of the Moderate Muslim Reply #: 544

AAmir

``

You make a grave mistake by expecting 1.2 bn muslim to act whenever some one in Indonesia to Morocco & Saudi to Bangladesh starts movement ,politics or expedition in the name of ISLAM.

Its one thing to do somthing locally, but impossible to effect influence say over other country .

``

-- Well these sames muslims from the same countries ARE voicing their opinions when it comes to issues such as Palestine, Afghanisthan and Kashmir. There were RIOTS in Indonesia when the bombs started hitting Kabul. Even the moderate Malayasians protested. So YES, I do expect muslims to stand up and take charge when someone from their own faith makes false statements in their name.

I expected Indian Muslims to protest against the ban imposed by the Congress govt. for fear of hurting the muslim sentiments. Indian muslims could have set up an unprecendeted example by saying that their religon and their faith in their beliefs was strong enough to withstand the writings of Salman Rushdie. Doing so, would have enabled them to stand for democracy and the right of free speech and earned the respect of the right wingers.

``

As far as condemning ,i think most ppl. will condemn misuse of religion,exploitation of ones religion & mass suicide or massacre in war in the false cause of religion.

``

-- Wrong again. If you ever notice, most muslims are silent when crimes against humanity are perpertrated in the name of Islam. Why else would they celebrate the falling of the WTC towers ? Why would they send their sons to fight against the US, in Afghanisthan. Aamir, wake up and smell the roses.

``

I like to challenge the same to other religion .the Majority silent hindu who let relatively minority RSS,Shiv Sena run down indian muslims .That is most deplorable b/c it not only involves religion but country of the same nationality as opposed to muslim ummah trying to prevent bangladesh riots or Osama in Afghanistan by kwaity muslim.I hope you see the disparity of influence.

``

-- Aamir, this is something that I will FULLY agree with you. In fact in my earlier post I went ahead and confessed that the fall of the Babri majsid was the FIRST time in recent histroy that Hindus actually resorted to terrorism, and that too with popular support of Hindus across the country. The feeling was pretty similar to the 1.2 billion muslims who don`t directly take part in issuing Fatwas or dying for Jihad, but who morally support such acts.

The difference is that the sacking of the Babri majsid was widely critiized by a large segment of the Hindu intelligencia. As a Hindu, I am not afraid to admit that what was done was wrong. However, you won`t find this kind of criticism in the muslim world, when they prosecute their miniorities. Forget that, you won`t muslims criticizing thier own brothers in our own country, India.

Why else would muslims protest against the ban of SIMI ? Why aren`t prominent muslims except Shabana Azmi, criticizing the Imam of Jama Majsid, Delhi for asking Indian muslims to go to Jihad against the US ?

Aamir, its ONLY through introspection that ones betters oneself. And before introspection can begin, one must first face the truth....and accept it.

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In Search of the Moderate Muslim Reply #: 470

AAmir

``

If Iranians themselves ,could not go against Ayatollah even though you know there are dissident Iranians ,do you think Pakistani muslims have any say in it??

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-- Well that`s the problem that I am trying to identify. Muslims tend not to speak out when fanatics and dictators implement their own policies in the name of ISLAM.

If they did not speak out against an Ayotollah, what right do they have to speak out against a Milosevic or the cause of Kashmir ? Muslims need to introspect cause that is the only way to imporve oneself. All great religons have gone through it. The Reformation in Christanity and the Bhakti movement in Hindusim are 2 such examples.

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If you talk about free speech of Salman Rushdie,as a Muslim ,i think he has bartered too much not only his religion (imaan) for whatever prize ,money fame he might have gotten out of it .

I realize he is a very talented man .....

through the ardous route making unnecessary enemies.

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-- Aamir, as a human being, as a consumer as a critic/journalist you have every right to show your displeasure by boycotting Rushdie or Naipaul or any other person. However, keeping quiet when a certain segment of muslims call for the ban of the book, in the name of ALL muslims (including you) takes away your right to protest against anything else either.

If not, then you become as duplitious as the USA is, in choosing your battles. As moral human beings, it is our obligation... no our DUTY to stand up against immoral acts, especially if they are done in our name.

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