Duck, Man, Duck! ``The articulate will deliver well chosen slurs in English, Urdu or Punjabi as the occasion demanded.``

Robert Maxwell, the founder of Pergamon Press, was a naturalized citizen of the UK. He was often reviled in the national press for less-than-ethical business practices. A Czech-mate of his told me an anecdote a few days ago:

On Maxwell`s election to the House of Commons, much was made of him not being British-born. An unfriendly MP asked him one day: ``Mr. Maxwell, what do you think of our freedoms in the UK. You have been allowed to serve in the Parliament, although you were not born in the UK?``

Replied Maxwell: ``I am British by choice, unlike you, who is British ny accident of birth. And may

I say, how unfortunate an accident!``

Refugees of A Refugee Camp ``The land of Canaan is Palestinian land and the Jews can either request their masters to resettle them in Canada...``

What nonsense! Israel is a reality that

the Arab countries will have to accept. The only

democracy (even though imperfect) suurounded

by religious/tribal/fascist tyrannies of all sorts, Israel is a shining beacon of progress to all

Arabs.

Here Are the Muslim Feminist Voices, Mr. Rushdie! Dr Afzal-Khan:

You have engaged Rushdie very well, by pointing out that Muslim women have indeed spoken out against obscurantist versions of Islam-as-it-is-practised. Nevertheless, you have also vindicated Rushdie. You could mention only 4 women and one female organization who have taken on obscurantism.

The so-called male Islamists speak out with a tremendously louder volume: a few killings every week in the name of religion, routine bombings of civilian areas, over-powering of a country (Afghanistan), intensive suppression of religious equality in entire countries (Saudi Arabia, for instance), and now, ramming civilian aircraft into civilian structures.

Insha`allah, the voices of the brave Muslim women against obscurantism will rise to a level when they would begin to be heard against the roar of the male Islamists.

When the Lights Hurt the Eyes Farzana:

Beautiful and thought-provoking article! Greatly enjoyed it, and relived Diwali, Holi and Id from my Lucknow childhood. Those were the days!

``Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thoughts``.

In Search of the Moderate Muslim Farzana Versey #271:

``but…if I were a teacher or an archeologist or a psychologist writing or

commenting about social issues, would you have asked me to find solutions?``

Yes. I am an engineering educator, and my colleagues and I regularly write

about solutions (after identifying problems

in pre-engineering education and engineering education). Some of us are able to implement

our or others` solutions, and the results obtained

are then reported.

So, once again, the identification of problems

is the job of a critic; the identification of

solutions is the job of a human being.

In Search of the Moderate Muslim Urstruly #220:

``Where is this Aadha Khatri Zafar now a days.``

Isn`t Islam (of which you are a fervid exponent)

neutral with respect to ethnicity, nationality,

and other separators of humankind? Then why do

you use the term ``Khatri`` in a seeemingly pejorative tone? Also, aren`t you implying

that ``Adha Khatri`` is somehow subhuman?

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In Search of the Moderate Muslim

by Farzana Versey

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 203

anNy

eklavya:

``Now, where has this sense of humor been hidden all these days?!

Absolutely marvellous.``

erm..that was a most blatant cut n paste job.. no homegrown humor :(

tahmedsaab urstruly:

heehee.:)...i couldnt stop hooting with laughter myself

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 202

SameerJB

Godot #173: That was very well said, right from the heart. However, I am not the right

person to pin even a tiny hope for reformation of Islam. I gave up all hope because of

insurmountable barriers and moreover, I started liking other philosophies than Islamic or

Judeo-Christian-Islamic ones.

Other day, I read an article about Zen Buddhism in a local Indian weekly newpaper, titled

``Sit, Walk or Run but don`t Wobble``. The problem with Islam is that in order to moderate

or reform it, you will have to wobble from the literal translation of holy book and other

material-as different interpretations with selective picking, choosing and discarding.

Why is it incumbent upon me to go through this trouble when I can live peacefully with

myself, my neighbors, my surroundings and nature. I do not believe in man against

satan, satan against god; man against nature, nature against man and man

ashraf-ul-makhluqat. These are funny religions. The spirituality or being at peace with

the self is lost in the clash of a variety of two extremes.

No Godot, I am not going to wobble in order to re-interpret something, I no longer

believe in. Now with the advent of ramzan, how am I going to re-interpret it? Of course, I

have no intention to fast. Although placing myself firmly out of it, I can not totally ignore

the trends in Islam because all of my family members are believing muslims and it

matters a lot to me. It would be hypocritical if I try to talk about reformong Islam while not

only believing in it but prefering other religion (s) over it. Yes, I will support those

responses in favor of reformation for the sake of people I care most, definitely not for

myself.

Regards,

Sameer

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 201

gowardhan

[India has remained reticent about making a common cause with Pakistan on the

question of supporting the international campaign against terrorism.] from Yawn

opinion

HA HA HA HA

Make common cause with a thief to safeguard property?

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 200

Farzana Versey

For those who deserved an earlier response, I am sorry about this delay. Since most of

the points raised are similar, I shall attempt to answer them as issues in a couple of

posts.

My ‘manifesto’ and jihad:

I did make it clear that I firmly believe in the Indian Constitution. Why did I make those

demands? That itself is revealing – one has to, because one belongs to a certain

community protected by the law, and yet cannot take many things for granted. Which is

why I put that cat among the pigeons.

I said: ``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.`` One of the responses I got was: “NO Ms

Versey -- ``we`` CANNOT -- not here in USA -- nor in INDIA. For that ``we`` have every

``right`` to be slapped, kicked, handcuffed, jailed AND -- even bombed.”

Thanks for reiterating all this. May I remind you that for many Indian Muslims, there is no

need to declare a jihad – there is something called TADA, which gives the

powers-that-be a carte blanche to do all these wonderful things. Or you can be

mistaken for an Afghan and left to die in the hospital premises. Or even though the

government does not have enough information about Abu Salem to have him

extradited, as an Indian Muslim you are supposed to ‘know’.

dost-mittar (#65):

[All these rights are already there, except ``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.`` Now,

by Jehad if you are talking about a non-violent jehad, you have that right too (let`s start

with one against religious bigotry and police brutality...). But if you mean a violent jehad,

that would be a criminal act under the law and would/should be dealt with accordingly;

or maybe you meant something else?]

One reason I added it there was the almost cavalier fashion in which the term was being

bandied about. Regarding non-violent jihad, I would call it infinite justice :) And yes,

against the things you mention, like bigotry, brutality. I am not for a violent jihad by

Indian Muslims at all (except for my views on insurgency movements in my country, that

are out in the open for all to see). Besides, while everyone is concentrating on the

demands, it is unfair to ignore the bottomline where I stated clearly: “But whatever we

do, it must be with the knowledge that while our acts may not be condemnable; they

need not be condoned by others.”

MaheshG (#115):

I had written to you: “You want to know if you can, as a Hindu, wage jihad against

Muslims, ask for Muslim obeisance… NO. Because the issues are not connected. I am

specifically talking about Indian Muslims, right? So, they (a fringe group, which I have

emphasized has no popular clout) have not asked for a jihad against Hindus; not now

and not in 1993. And, on what grounds would you expect Muslim obeisance?”

Your response: “I never said jehad against Indian Muslims, did I? ANd there is no law

calling for Muslim obeisance. Hindus can not demand it. And that is precisely my point.

You can`t ask for rights that are exclusive to Muslims. Muslims should conform to the

same laws that everybody else is.”

It would be interesting to know who Hindus would wage a jihad against (if at all) if not

Indian Muslims. In Islam, they cry out everytime they see an infidel. They see it as a part

of their religion. None of those ‘rights’ are exclusive to Muslims. I mean, Hindus too can

wear a bindi, grow beards etc. Muslims do conform to the laws – in fact there are specific

ones enacted for ‘bad Muslims’.

[I don`t believe what you are saying here. Babri Masjid was pulled down citing Hindu

sentiment and you are telling me you won`t ask your Hindu friends whether that is really

the sentiment or not? Maybe not you personally but others would.]

Except for Dawood Ibrahim and his cohorts (whose form of asking was to bomb parts of

the city), I am telling you in all sincerity that Hindus were not questioned. It is not

inherent Muslim gentleness, of course – perhaps minority fears prevented it. And this

was the case even in the worst-affected areas. The establishment and its movers and

shakers were blamed, mostly in whispers, but there were heart-warming stories about

the kindness of friends from the other community. I cannot deny that with time and the

wonderful jugalbandi of ‘extremist-liberal’ intervention, the suspicions have crept into

their minds. But it is more in the minds of those living in skyscrapers.

[And it is only the liberals that I pose these questions to. Because it is important to know

what they think of people who claim to follow their own religion and indulge in these

heinous acts. It is important because it is in the hands of the liberal to rescue their

religion

from the hands of the terrorists.]

Liberals live on an island. They always have more questions than answers. And why

must a religion be questioned even if terrorists commit their acts under its guise? Have

you not seen liberals like Yaseen Malik join the ranks of militants? He is not a child who

was brainwashed. In Kashmir many of the militants have got married to women who are

doctors, engineers, professors. So, what gives here? I have been talking about the

double-speak of liberals who cannot decide and therefore keep their options open. (I

am certainly not talking about the Chowkies you mentioned.)

I don’t mean to bait you, but since you ask me questions and you do not think I am a

liberal, under what category would you place me? Yes, I am aware you have not called

me a Pakistani, but when others have you have not jumped in to defend me either.

Sadna (#117):

[But I think its not uncommon to come across NR Muslims, not necessarily from India,

who hold this general belief, mostly in a benign impersonal way, that all the world will

eventually be converted to Islam including America, Europe and India. They seem to

regard this as an inevitable consequence of the existence of Islam.

So my question is, what is your own opinion about this, esp with respect to Indians of

nonMuslim faith? Is such a belief an inseparable part of every ``religious`` Muslim`s belief,

do you think? Do `fundamental rights to religious freedom` for Muslims in India need to

allow public manifestations of this internal belief (in the eventual triumph of Islam), for

Muslims to feel truly free to follow their religion? If nonMuslim Indians donot accept in

principle that all nonMuslims Indians are inevitably headed for Islam, is this a curtailment

of Indian Muslims religious freedoms?]

Yes, NR Muslims possibly do suffer from this belief, but it is less benign and impersonal

than you think. I suppose having been co-opted into a ‘conglomerate’, they yearn for a

brotherhood, and they believe that Islam will provide that. (Christianity uses the more

subtle form of charity as intellectual of not real conversion.)

Re. my opinion, I certainly am not looking for an Islamic utopia (if there is one) for India.

Most Indian Muslims are extremely aware about Hinduism, though as always happens,

cultural clashes are sometimes inevitable. By ‘Religious’ Muslims in India if you mean

those who believe in the tenets of Islam and practise them in their lives, then they

would not want to be Hinduized in any manner that is antithetical to their religion or

understanding of it. But there is a segment that is ‘super-religious’, and they are the

equivalent of the Bajrang Dal etc. But being a minority community they do not see any

hope of India turning into an Islamic nation. (And they do not want to go to Pakistan

either. I wonder what message that gives us.)

The ‘triumph of Islam’ is a pipe dream at best. I think every society assumes they are on

the verge of a renaissance when they are threatened OR they acquire clout. Islam is

currently in both these positions, depending on where you are and what you are

thinking. Being a monotheistic religion that holds the Book as the final word, there is

bound to be curtailment of those of non-Islamic faiths that flout those norms. Islam as

some believers tell us is a religion of tolerance, but it is also a stringent belief system

following a linear path. To use a metaphor, it is like a highway; you have to follow a

certain speed; no jaywalking and stay beyond those fences.

But I am not the best representative of good or bad Muslims.

-----

Some other questions will be dealt with in a subsequent post.

Regards,

Farzana

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 199

SameerJB

Ali1 #169:

[another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all

wrong.... upside down, literally.]

This is only true for good muslim men. For good muslim women, it would be something

like:

[another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all

wrong.... downside up, literally.]

Please, please, in the name of father, the son and the holy ghost, please shave your

legs and not........

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 198

Zafar Al-Talib

Hello peoples.

Here is a random prediction.

US will keep saying that they will bomb through Ramzan.

Musharraf will keep telling them not to - perhaps at the last minute he will give them a

``final warning``, threatening to withdraw Pakistan`s support for the war.

The US will then back down with much muttering and complaining.

The war will not be much affected by this cessation of bombing for a month.

Musharraf will be much strengthened domestically.

The US and Musharraf will live happily ever after (don`t ask me about the Afghans post

Ramzan) - er, until the pesky subject of Kashmir comes up.

Does this sound likely, or a paranoid chomsky type fantasy, or both?

Zafar

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 197

rajanjua

re: dost-mittar

``Leaving aside the contentious issue of to what extent the conversions (in the

subcontinent) were a change of heart and to what extent they were due to various

incentives and disincentives,``

I think we exchanged a couple of posts on this topic before - Just wanted to add a few

words on the spread of Islam which according to some was purely on the basis of sword

or reward, etc.

1. There was no invading army sent into south east asia (malaysia & indonesia).

Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world.

2. Mongols and other Turkic tribes almost wiped out the Islamic/Arab civilization but

after conquerering the Muslims they themselves converted to Islam (these guys sure

as hell were neither afraid nor needed any incentives) - Two of their clans are especially

illustrious - The Usmani Turks and the Chagatai Turks (aka Mughals) - Babar by the way,

used to rule the area north of Afghanistan and was pushed out of that region by one of

his cousin, Uzbek Khan, into Afghanistan. His kingdom/khandom in the north lost, he

decided to turn east.

``I would suggest that most people at the time of conversion thought that conversion

merely meant belief in one God and His Prophet, the rest of the baggage coming later.``

I am not sure what people thought at that time - but I think, although religion eventually

becomes part of a culture it cannot be allowed to dominate the culture and this whole

idea of ``Islam being a complete way of life`` is total nonsense. The rest of the baggage

as you put it, has been invented by a bunch of morons and they are welcome to

practise it in Kandahar.

``The whole aspect of Islam and culture has become very topical. It would be useful if

you could find the time to write a critique of Naipaul`s work on Chowk.``

V. S. Naipaul in my opinion is quite mediocre and I was surprised that they gave him the

Nobel Prize. His younger brother Shiva, would have been a better choice, although I

don`t think he has written that much.

Regards.

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 196

shima

Farzana, you probably have read it, but if not then, please read it.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20011031/ed3.html

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 195

shima

Farzana, obviously you did not want to address me, but addressed my post. Does not

really matter. I don`t think any Indians in Chowk has any doubt about the ground reality

in India, especially about the Hindu-Muslim relationship, and many of us know (even if

they do not agree) that the problems exist. But my point has been always with your

articles, what are you as a media person trying to do to remediate those problems? Do

you not also play a part in mutual trust building? Do you think by just pointing out the

problems that too in a non-functional forum like Chowk, you become a great activist? My

friend, you are wrong there. Of course you will always be what you want to be, thus you

can never be Zafar or Faruk at least to some of us. You chose to be part of the

problems, but not the solution as you want.

I do not know who are those Hindus that you talk about, but if you trust me, all my

relatives have water, korma, biriyani,kebab,Ruh-afza, (but no vegetables!!, I don`t think

you can cook vegetable, last time I ate in a muslim friend`s house, she put ground meat

in Okra) from any muslims. When we go to an Indian restaurant, we never ask whether

the food was made by a Hindu cook. I am 40+ old (if experience counts), have never

seen any Hindu friends doing that. I really do not know whether you are talking about

urban Hindus or villagers (I do not have any clue about the villages). Hope the villages

also have come long way as well, especially when movies, serials are showing so much

of Hindu-Muslim Bhai-Bhai themes.

Do you really know why the builder`s plan was withdrawn? Do not try to speculate.

When I mentioned about Shabana, I never even thought that we (you, Shabana and

me) all happen to be women. So, do not try to read between the lines. See, to me and

many other Indians, Shabana is just a fine and gifted human being. It did not occur to

me until recently that she has a religion!!!

Shima #195 appealed to Farzana Versey:

`` What Faruk says is correct, we have come a long way with our heavy baggage, and have a long way to go. My only complaint or plea to you that use your writing power/skill not to create any more divison, but to cement the divison. Next time send an article in Chowk focusing at least one of your positive experiences in India. I am sure you may have one in your 20-30+ life there.``

As someone who is also in his mid-40s, I join Shima in suggesting to you that you should accentuate the

positive. Critics are useful in identifyng problematic issues, but unremitting criticism is ineffective and inflames the situation.

You are talented. You can write well. Therefore, write -- about problems for sure, but about solutions too. Good luck!

A Time for Renewal narain #715:

``but not my Alma mater: St. Francis College?``

When did you pass out of SFC? I finished ISC

(then 11 years) in 1973, and my brother Shailesh

was in the first 10+2 batch.

After a gap of some 18 years, I visited SFC

in Jan 2001. Much has changed, but the campus

remains as beautiful as I remembered it to be.

Drop me a line at axl4@psu.edu.

Akhlesh

A Time for Renewal A thoughtful, even-handed article. Much appreciated!

A Pakistani School’s Visit to India RSaxena # 341:

[``I have heard this from others -- invariably Hindu Indian-Americans with a ``India only for Hindus`` mindset``

I have never heard this from any Indian. Either you`re hanging out with the RSS or you`re making it up.]

You could not have met every Indian, could you?

Also, many RSS types are Indians too. One does not have to be ``hanging out`` with people of a certain group to hear something.

A Pakistani School’s Visit to India Manoj #208: `` I feel sorry that a lady like you has to go to to schools which teach K for Kafir ( with a photo of a Hindu) and Z for Zalim ( with a photo of a Sikh)``

I have heard this from others -- invariably Hindu Indian-Americans with a ``India only for Hindus`` mindset -- but no one has ever been able to show me an actual book with ``K for Kafir``, etc. from Pakistan. So I suggest Manoj to scan pages from such a book, post the scans somewhere on the web, and send us the URL. Otherwise, do not repeat that canard.

In Memory of R.K. Narayan Bijli #29

``Whether Arundhati Roy is 1/2 bengali or malayali or Chitra banerjee married thar

Devkernian ,she retains her fathers Name more than take the Southy name .You dont

know the Bengali nari fire ,Mamta Banerjee,although i do admit Iyer gurls are firy too.Yea

there are others Geeta Mehta,Anita desai,Bapsi Sidhwa,Kiran Desai,Firdaus Kanga,but

none like the JHUmpa Lahiri ???``

Firdaus Kanga is a gay Parsi man from Bombay.

Paki Students in the US: a Female Perspective TAAhmed #13 ``Oh, and as for bibi psychobabble, how could you forget the category for Monkey Men? Here is the definition: Walks and talks like a man. But scratches his rear,picks his toenails (with his teeth)``

If he picks his toenails with his teeth, he

cannot be fat!

The Soft Option Kashmir should be ``left alone``? Neither India nor Pakistan cannot afford to leave it alone; if they do, China will jump in and dictate terms to both. Humans are political animals, not saints.

Tu khudaa hai naa meraa ishq farishto.n jaisaa

Dono.n insaan hain......

To ignore this reality is not only naive but also incredibly dangerous for the innocent and the guilty alike. The Brits (and their successors) ignored the possibility of mass population transfers, and the havoc of Partition resulted.

Science Is A Dead End Career

In re MacGupta:

``It is sheer historical revisionism to suggest that Newton, Gauss or Euler were engineers

seeking to create new products and services.``

Proper revisionism is just fine. When new facts and interpretations appear, revisionism occurs. Those who oppose valid revisionism are simply `preists`.

``One who claims this may want to study how and when for example, Newton wrote his Principia.``

This writer did, and then came to the conclusion that Newton was an engineer.

``It is true that sometimes engineers are at the cutting edge of science, and then they do

create new science. More often, they push a technology far enough that then a

scientific experiment that was previously not feasible could then be done.``

Fair enough.

`` But for most part, engineering work results in science that is immediately applicable to

the problem at hand.``

Wonderful, praticularly for taxpayer-funded research.

``There are an enormous number of discoveries ranging from radioactivity to continental drift to general relativity to quantum theory that had zero

application when they were discovered.``

One should read a bit more about the circumstances of those discoveries, instead of relying on journalistic accounts and convenient boxes in

textbooks.

``Another indication is the difference in the physics and mathematics curricula between

physicists and engineers.``

This writer has not seen any significant

differences, except as they relate to fields

of specialization.

Science Is A Dead End Career The contributed piece is marred by the common misperception that many ``scientists`` (particularly US-trained/influenced physicists) have that engineers refine and exploit science. Like all simplistic beliefs, that is sheer and complete nonsense.

Engineers create science as they seek to produce new and improved products and services. Newton, Gauss, Euler, etc. were engineers. Not only did they indulge in curiosity-driven research, they were fully impelled by prevailing needs for new products as well as market forces. Engineers continue to do the same. If they need to investigate some issue, they do so -- and develop new mathematics as well as discover new scientific principles thereby.

To engineer is human.