Indians and Pakistanis Must Start Anew The author`s views are very idealistics. Unlike many other Pakistanis on this board I did`nt take any offense. The crusade that some Pakistanis have started against the author is vey unplesant. YLH logic is very much like a 9th class student who takes Pakistan Studies very seriously. Whatever arguments he has given are directly from that garbage. One thing I don`t understand why Pakistanis have to now and then defend the existence of the country? Other thing I don`t understand is the Muslim nationalism. If a nation consist of many different religions then is every religion a seperate nation? Are Christines in Palestine and Egypt not Arabs? Are Buddist, christins, athiest not one nation in China? Why only in SOuth Asia Muslims and Hindus are seperate nations? If Pakistan is the aspiration of the Muslims of South Asia then what is the nationality of christines and hindus in Pakistan? Are they Pakistanis? If Pakistan was not made in the name of Islam then what was the need for it? Can`t Muslims remain secular while living in India? If Pakistan is made for the Muslims of South Asia then why there is visa and other restrictions from Muslims if India to visit Pakistan?

The Point solitude reply#40

if you are referring to the strict orthodox islam then i believe you that islam is responsible for the segregation of sexes. every muslim has his/her own interpretation of islam. as ferozk rightly pointed that this trend is also rampant in northern india, which is not a muslim dominating area. i however believe that this narrow-minded intrepretation of islam need to be stopped. we need a protestant kind of movement in islam. so instead of looking-up to our CE, we should start looking for a martin luther king.

The Point The sexual assult of the chota molvi is the direct consequences of segregation of sexes. In this aparthied like situation men consider women as a specie other than human. Rather blaming men or religion, it is the whole outlook of the society that needs to be changed.

Mecca or Mohenjodaro? ``It would have made no difference to the creation of Pakistan if Mohenjodaro existed or not. On the other hand, it would have made all the difference in the world if Mecca existed or not.``

So what you are saying is that all muslims were imported to the region of Pakistan, and before Islam came there was no one living on the plains of Indus? There would have been no people had there been no Mohenjodaro. And there would have been no Pakistan had there been no people. You seems like another victim of Pakistan Studies.

Pakistan - The Way Forward Democracy is not a western concept. Democracy is common sense. And common sense is not a western concept either. It was with us for thousands of years untill with the help of yahood-o-hunood sazish those westeners stole it from us. I think common sense was locked in that kooh-e-noor that those english people stole from us. Thats the reason why we don`t have any sense left. Or perhaps it was locked in Quran and those godless, filthy western kafirs understood it before we did. You ask what the solution for Pakistan is. Well let me give you one. Let us move Pakistan from Southasia to align it with the US west coast. So that it no longer remain in the eastern world and enjoy democracy and other ``western`` concepts. Second solution is lets make Pakistan a quasi-monarchytheocommidemotyranny. All the problems will vanish once this systems gets its hold. I am ready to make a difference for my country. I am the way forward. I have tabled my thoughts and I want to do jihad. If any one is with my in this crusade then e-mail me at fanbaba@hotmail.com

Verdict in Pakistan Umair reply#50:

``I don`t think people are as short-sighted as you make them out to be.``

1958, 1968, 1977, 1988, and 1999. Is`nt this enough to prove how short-sighted our people are? This is the 5th time we have fallen in the trap. Imagine a person failing his matric exam five times. Would`nt that be enough to prove his mental state and intellect?

``The one thing that most commentators do agree on is that this regime is more honest and competent than the previous ones.``

Well all regimes seems honest and hardworking in their few months. After all Zia regime was also ``honest`` and ``God-fearing``. What scale has been devised by these commentators to prove this regime`s honesty and competency? If by including couple of lotas and ``experts`` a regime gets its certificate of honesty then I believe Benazir 1993 government was the most honest of all.

``However, so far they are doing a far better job than the NS regime.``

I don`t think there is anyone in Pakistan who has enoughs guts and resources to check whether this regime is doing a better job or not. The constitution has been suspended and the judicary has been tamed. There is no Senate and the president is just a figurehead. In this situation who is there to pin-point the regimes shortfall? Who is there to check its wrong policies and corruption?

We have seen enough clowns in khaki, the self-proclaimed saviors of the nation for the last fifty years. If there is anyone to blame for the alleged failier of democracy, its those khakis. They create corrupt politician who can serve their interest. We are caught in this infinite web of coup and election and corrupt politicians and khaki clowns. There is no light at the end of the tunnel as even the WAPDA is taken over by the army!

Verdict in Pakistan This trial and its verdict proves again how bogus and ineffective our judicial system is. With repeated military coups the judiciary has become another Lance Niak Allah Ditta for the army. With an illegal unconstitutional government in power and judges handicapped by the new oath of allegiance is it fair to assume that justice has been delivered?

Men of the Millenium Well pack your bags Solitude. Reply-er #22 is in west:)

Men of the Millenium I think Hitler should be in the list. He was evil but his influence and his policies has changed our world. Beside he had done his job very well. Expelling Jews from europe effectivly. The European leaders who were carrying their dream of effectivly expelling Jews for good, came true!

Men of the Millenium oops. I thought reply-er #22 is bahmad. Cheer up solitude, you don`t need to pack up.

In Defence of Benevolent Dictators Pakistan`s Pathos



Tariq Ali

Pakistan is, once again, in the throes of a serious crisis. The country is under martial law. The elected prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, his brother, Shahbaz and General Ziaudin, the head of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) are under house arrest. Ever since its foundation in 1947, the Pakistan state has been plagued by a failure to establish strong democratic institutions. The reason is simple. From 1951 onwards, when the country had become a US pawn in the cold war, Washington felt that the army was the best guarantor of Washington`s interests in the region. General Ayub Khan`s dictatorship (1958-68) was openly backed by the US state department, till it was swept aside by a popular uprising that lasted three months. General Zia`s monstrous regime (1977-89) was spawned by the Pentagon and the Defense Intelligence Agency, eager for a proxy to take on the Russians in Afghanistan.

For the third time in its traumatic history, the army has seized power, this time, apparently, against the advice of the US. The people - disillusioned, apathetic, weary - appear indifferent to the fate of their venal politicians. There is widespread disgust at the inability of successive governments to control the scale of corruption. For several years now, the decay at the heart of the administration had become a national scandal. Politicians were so busy lining their own pockets that they had little time to ponder the welfare of the country and its people.

In 1997 a palace coup, orchestrated by her own hand-picked president, removed Benazir Bhutto. It was alleged that she and her husband, Senator Asif Zardari, had used the Prime Minister`s House to amass a large private fortune, estimated at somewhere close to $1bn.

In the subsequent general elections, her long-time opponent, Nawaz Sharif scored a triumph, winning 80% of the seats in parliament, but on the basis of an exceptionally low turn-out. Only 25% of the electorate bothered to vote. Benazir`s supporters punished her by staying at home. The new government had promised a great deal, but nothing changed.

The country continued to rot. Pakistan has never been able to provide the bulk of its population with either free education or health, but in the past it could offer food to the poor at subsidised prices and protect innocent lives from random killings. No longer. Everything is falling apart. A country that spends billions to fund its arsenal of nuclear weapons, forces its poor to eat grass. The suicide rate among the poor, driven insane by poverty, has risen sharply over the last decade. Last January a transport worker in Hyderabad, who had not been paid for two years, soaked himself in petrol and set himself alight outside the Press Club. He left behind a letter: ``I have lost patience. Me and my fellow workers have been protesting the non-payment of our salaries for a long time. But nobody takes any notice. My wife and mother are seriously ill and I have no money for their treatment. My family is starving and I am fed up with quarrels. I don`t have the right to live. I am sure the flames of my body will reach the houses of the rich one day.``

The Sharif brothers and their father, strong believers in globalisation and neo-liberal economics, helped create an enterprise culture in which they genuinely believed that everything was for sale, including politicians, civil servants and, yes, generals. There were widespread rumours that, in order to buy time and make yet more money, the Sharif family had provided sackfuls of general-friendly dollars to bolster their support in the army. A section of the high command was

enraged by this civilian interference.

The immediate cause of the latest coup was Sharif`s decision to sack the army chief, General

Musharraf while he was on an official visit to Sri Lanka and appoint General Ziaudin in his place.

Just as Pakistan TV was showing Sharif appointing and congratulating the new army chief, the old army pulled the plug and the country`s TV screens went blank. Ziaudin, as the ISI boss, is the main supplier of the Taliban army in Afghanistan. He is sympathetic to the fundamentalist cause and loathed by officers, who value the secular side of the army and enjoy drinking whisky to the tune of bagpipes at regimental dinners.

Musharraf`s supporters inside the army moved swiftly. Once Nawaz Sharif`s instruction that the plane returning the general to Pakistan be diverted to a foreign country was ignored and Musharraf landed at a Karachi Airport secured by the army it became obvious that the government would be toppled. The bloated Pakistan army - one of the Pentagon`s spoilt brats in Asia - hated becoming a cold war orphan. ``Pakistan was the condom the Americans needed to enter Afghanistan,`` a retired general told me last year. ``We`ve served our purpose and they think we can just be flushed down the toilet.``

Last year the army, fearful that a forced rapprochement with India might lead to a relegation of its status and power and a reduction of its budget, played the nuclear card. This was followed by a adventurous border clash with India in Kashmir during which Pakistan received a severe drubbing. This increased tensions with the government which tried to pin the entire blame for the botched operation on the army. Now General Musharraf has seized power in the country, but in changed conditions.

The army is no longer a unified institution. Well organized groups of Islamic zealots have penetrated its core. Unlike the older and more traditional religious parties, the Soldiers of the First Four Caliphs, the Soldiers of Muhammed, the Soldiers of Medina and the Volunteers are all hungry for power. Their preferred model is that of the Taliban and earlier in the year one of their factions seized several villages in the North-West Frontier province and declared the area to be under ``Islamic law``. A public destruction of TV sets and dish antennae took place in the village of Zargari. If such a faction were ever to take over the Pakistan army - and the possibility is not as remote as it seemed a few years ago - then the possession of nuclear weapons would acquire frightening new significance.

If Washington refuses to tolerate a new dictator, the most likely scenario is a caretaker government staffed by IMF-approved technocrats. That, too, will achieve little, for the only serious and rational alternative to domestic chaos is a long-term treaty of friendship and trade with India, a new permanent settlement which could form the basis of a larger EU-style confederation of south Asian republics. For over 50 years, Pakistan has turned its back on India, imagining it could replace its giant neighbour by cultivating links with the gulf states and Saudi Arabia. The strategy has been a political and economic failure, leaving the country denuded of a skilled labour force and incapable of meeting its own basic needs.

In recent years there have been a few signs in that politicians of the main secular parties were beginning to explore a new economic deal with India. Pressure from the fundamentalists and the army sent their heads quickly back into the sand. And yet this remains the only rational solution in the medium term. All other options are bleak beyond belief. The ISI-armed fundamentalists are waiting in the wings. If they decided to split the army it would unleash a bloody civil war, with devastating consequences for the region. If the politicians of the sub-continent fail to devise a way of living together, they might end up dying together.

Again, Desperate Times Pakistan`s Pathos

Tariq Ali

Pakistan is, once again, in the throes of a serious crisis. The country is under martial law. The

elected prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, his brother, Shahbaz and General Ziaudin, the head of Inter

Services Intelligence (ISI) are under house arrest. Ever since its foundation in 1947, the Pakistani

state has been plagued by a failure to establish strong democratic institutions. The reason is

simple. From 1951 onwards, when the country had become a US pawn in the cold war, Washington felt

that the army was the best guarantor of Washington`s interests in the region. General Ayub Khan`s

dictatorship (1958-68) was openly backed by the US state department, till it was swept aside by a

popular uprising that lasted three months. General Zia`s monstrous regime (1977-89) was spawned by

the Pentagon and the Defense Intelligence Agency, eager for a proxy to take on the Russians in

Afghanistan.

For the third time in its traumatic history, the army has seized power, this time, apparently,

against the advice of the US. The people - disillusioned, apathetic, weary - appear indifferent to

the fate of their venal politicians. There is widespread disgust at the inability of successive

governments to control the scale of corruption. For several years now, the decay at the heart of the

administration had become a national scandal. Politicians were so busy lining their own pockets that

they had little time to ponder the welfare of the country and its people.

In 1997 a palace coup, orchestrated by her own hand-picked president, removed Benazir Bhutto. It was

alleged that she and her husband, Senator Asif Zardari, had used the Prime Minister`s House to amass

a large private fortune, estimated at somewhere close to $1bn.

In the subsequent general elections, her long-time opponent, Nawaz Sharif scored a triumph, winning

80% of the seats in parliament, but on the basis of an exceptionally low turn-out. Only 25% of the

electorate bothered to vote. Benazir`s supporters punished her by staying at home. The new

government had promised a great deal, but nothing changed.

The country continued to rot. Pakistan has never been able to provide the bulk of its population

with either free education or health, but in the past it could offer food to the poor at subsidised

prices and protect innocent lives from random killings. No longer. Everything is falling apart. A

country that spends billions to fund its arsenal of nuclear weapons, forces its poor to eat grass.

The suicide rate among the poor, driven insane by poverty, has risen sharply over the last decade.

Last January a transport worker in Hyderabad, who had not been paid for two years, soaked himself in

petrol and set himself alight outside the Press Club. He left behind a letter: ``I have lost

patience. Me and my fellow workers have been protesting the non-payment of our salaries for a long

time. But nobody takes any notice. My wife and mother are seriously ill and I have no money for

their treatment. My family is starving and I am fed up with quarrels. I don`t have the right to

live. I am sure the flames of my body will reach the houses of the rich one day.``

The Sharif brothers and their father, strong believers in globalisation and neo-liberal economics,

helped create an enterprise culture in which they genuinely believed that everything was for sale,

including politicians, civil servants and, yes, generals. There were widespread rumours that, in

order to buy time and make yet more money, the Sharif family had provided sackfuls of

general-friendly dollars to bolster their support in the army. A section of the high command was

enraged by this civilian interference.

The immediate cause of the latest coup was Sharif`s decision to sack the army chief, General

Musharraf while he was on an official visit to Sri Lanka and appoint General Ziaudin in his place.

Just as Pakistan TV was showing Sharif appointing and congratulating the new army chief, the old

army pulled the plug and the country`s TV screens went blank. Ziaudin, as the ISI boss, is the main

supplier of the Taliban army in Afghanistan. He is sympathetic to the fundamentalist cause and

loathed by officers, who value the secular side of the army and enjoy drinking whisky to the tune of

bagpipes at regimental dinners.

Musharraf`s supporters inside the army moved swiftly. Once Nawaz Sharif`s instruction that the plane

returning the general to Pakistan be diverted to a foreign country was ignored and Musharraf landed

at a Karachi Airport secured by the army it became obvious that the government would be toppled. The

bloated Pakistan army - one of the Pentagon`s spoilt brats in Asia - hated becoming a cold war

orphan. ``Pakistan was the condom the Americans needed to enter Afghanistan,`` a retired general told

me last year. ``We`ve served our purpose and they think we can just be flushed down the toilet.``

Last year the army, fearful that a forced rapprochement with India might lead to a relegation of its

status and power and a reduction of its budget, played the nuclear card. This was followed by an

adventurous border clash with India in Kashmir during which Pakistan received a severe drubbing.

This increased tensions with the government which tried to pin the entire blame for the botched

operation on the army. Now General Musharraf has seized power in the country, but in changed

conditions.

The army is no longer a unified institution. Well organized groups of Islamic zealots have

penetrated its core. Unlike the older and more traditional religious parties, the Soldiers of the

First Four Caliphs, the Soldiers of Muhammed, the Soldiers of Medina and the Volunteers are all

hungry for power. Their preferred model is that of the Taliban and earlier in the year one of their

factions seized several villages in the North-West Frontier province and declared the area to be

under ``Islamic law``. A public destruction of TV sets and dish antennae took place in the village of

Zargari. If such a faction were ever to take over the Pakistan army - and the possibility is not as

remote as it seemed a few years ago - then the possession of nuclear weapons would acquire a

frightening new significance.

If Washington refuses to tolerate a new dictator, the most likely scenario is a caretaker government

staffed by IMF-approved technocrats. That, too, will achieve little, for the only serious and

rational alternative to domestic chaos is a long-term treaty of friendship and trade with India, a

new permanent settlement which could form the basis of a larger EU-style confederation of south

Asian republics. For over 50 years, Pakistan has turned its back on India, imagining it could

replace its giant neighbour by cultivating links with the gulf states and Saudi Arabia. The strategy

has been a political and economic failure, leaving the country denuded of a skilled labour force and

incapable of meeting its own basic needs.

In recent years there have been a few signs in that politicians of the main secular parties were

beginning to explore a new economic deal with India. Pressure from the fundamentalists and the army

sent their heads quickly back into the sand. And yet this remains the only rational solution in the

medium term. All other options are bleak beyond belief. The ISI-armed fundamentalists are waiting in

the wings. If they decided to split the army it would unleash a bloody civil war, with devastating

consequences for the region. If the politicians of the sub-continent fail to devise a way of living

together, they might end up dying together.

In Defence of Benevolent Dictators ``It is perhaps time to question the wisdom of our former colonial masters who continue to preach at us from their comfortable ivory towers, about how we should run our state. It is perhaps time to find a different way.``

I have a car given to me by ``colonial rulers``. But whenever I try to take it out of my garage I bump it against the walls and badly damage it. Then I accuse my colonial masters who continue to preach at me from their comfortable ivory towers, about how to drive my car. It is perhaps time for me walk all 5 miles to do my groceries, 10 miles to my school and 7 miles to my friends place. People think I am an idiot but I am not! I am just trying ``find a different way.`` More driving ? More of the same ? No thanks!

In Defence of Benevolent Dictators ``It is perhaps time to question the wisdom of our former colonial masters who continue to preach at us from their comfortable ivory towers, about how we should run our state. It is perhaps time to find a different way.``

I have a car given to me by ``colonial rulers``. But whenever I try to take it out of my garage I bump it against the walls and badly damage it. Then I accuse my ``colonial masters who continue to preach at me from their comfortable ivory towers, about how to drive my car.`` It is perhaps time for me walk all 5 miles to do my groceries, 10 miles to my school and 7 miles to my friends place. People think I am an idiot but I am not! I am just trying ``find a different way.`` More driving ? More of the same ? No thanks!

Again, Desperate Times A great article. Exactly what I have been saying since Oct 13th on Chowk forums. People when are you going to realize that army is the biggest enemy of our nation. Army is the real problem of Pakistan, not Nawaz or Benazir. This coup is another slap on the face of Pakistan. And our gharatmand awam has no dignity left as they have accepted the worst treason and rape of the country. People you got to wake up before its too late. Or else our next generation will loath us forever for not raising our voices against injustice.

Compilation of Opinions on the Military Takeover in Pakistan Martial law is the worst thing that can happen to a country. Martial law administrator cannot expect

people to follow the law since he himself has broken the constitution. We hav`nt experienced democracy

because of our long association with military or quasi-military rule. Thats way all democratic

governments we experienced have been dictatorial in nature. Democracy takes a lot of time and patience

to florish. The journey for a perfect democratic system is painfull but in the end very effective. The

western countries has gone through the worse since they believed in the system and now they are

enjoying the fruits of democracy. On the other hand our people have been repeatedly fooled by our

military for the last 52 years. You can fool a nation once or twice but not for ever. But our nation is so

marvellous that it has been fooled for 52 years and still has`nt learnt from its mistake. So instead of

blaming the politicians for not knowing the spelling of democracy, we should look at ourself and ask ,

are we really literate? After 52 years we don`t even know our destiny. Are we really a failed nation?

It is the army who has failed us and those ignorant masses who celebrate whenever a democratic elected

government is uncounstitutionally removed. Army has a habit of counqering our nation every 10-20 year.

It destroys all democractic norms that flourished in its absence. The Indophobia we inherited since our

creation is also the reason behind this mess. Only people has to decide the fate of out nation. No

mard-e-momin of khlifa would help. The reason for all this mess in Pakistan is because peoples opinion

has been voilated every now and then by military and its pawns. For a country entering 21st century,

having a system even looked downed upon by ancient Greeks is a shame. Shame on Pakistan nation!