After the defeat

Yeah, we have kicked butt again! A Paki plane, flying in Indian airspace and acting hostile, was shot down!

It appears that an angered India wants to make sure that the Pakis pay for their incredibly silly misadventure in Kargil. Most Pakistanis often like to compare Pakistan with India, forgetting that India is the world`s second-largest nation, a country with immense resources. Promoting terrorism was foolhardy enough, but by instigating the Kargil attack, the Pakis woke up a sleeping giant.

And the Giant is very angry. Well, Pakis, brace yourselves for more action! India is huge. And now, it`s also angry!! We will kick butt!!!

Our current and future maneouvers will keep the Paki military establishment engaged and will force Pakistan to CONTINUE spending 85% of its resources on defense. This will push Pakistan further into jahannum!

An advice to Pakistanis: Let go of all malice. Let`s try and live in peace. But that can happen only if you, the Pakis, cease to extend moral or immoral support to Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan or elsewhere.

Kargil and the Myth of Losing the Media War

It is amazing how so many Pakistanis continue to insist that the terrorism in Kashmir (they call it the `freedom struggle`) is for a just cause.

Tariq talks about the countless atrocities being committed by various terrorist outfits on innocent civilians (an example: they severed the head of a Scandinivian guy who perhaps didn`t even know why on earth did he have to die like that!), yet says that the Kashmiri `struggle` is a `just cause`.

The idea that people from diverse backgrounds cannot live together is a very theocratic and narrow-minded one. Diversity is good. Secularism and respect for all is key to our survival in a world that is now beginning to learn that we are only DIFFERENT (not `good` or `bad` just because we happen to be Hindus or Muslims or whatever).

The only reason why some Indians (in the state of Kashmir) and most Pakis think that this ridiculous yet cruel `freedom struggle` is justified is because they believe it is a `holy war`, with Muslims pitched against those `bad` Hindus. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is wrong to brand any community `good` or `bad` simply because they appear to be different. Such stereotyping is the tool of fanatics and demagogoues. India is a diverse nation with more Muslims and Hindus than any other country. The Kashmiri `struggle` is NOT just. It is cruel, atrocious, and inhuman. Pakistani involvement will only lead to complete Talibanisation of Pakistan and will give all Muslims a bad name the world over.

Kargil and the Myth of Losing the Media War Attn.: OMAR 1974

This one is especially for OMAR 1974.



I have been observing his postings.

This guy (OMAR) is either sick or dis-oriented, or both! He refers to a group of people as `pagans`, talks about `vaporising` a whole country, and insists Kashmir is Pakistan`s national goal!

I find his comments unconstructive and stupid, and of course, very unIslamic.

By the way, OMAR, a comment on your hatred for religious groups other than your own: Remember, you are a Muslim only because you were born in a Muslim family. Had you been born in the Vatican, you would have been a Christian. Had you been born in Kathmandu or Calcutta, you might have been a Hindu! Learn to be tolerant. And realize that religion is a personal thing. If you don`t like the way others `worship`, well, that`s their business. You mind your own. One does not go around telling others what kind of hair-style they must have or how they should walk/talk or worship.

Save India

India is a great country, not just because it has an over 7,000 year history of civilization, sacrifices, mistakes, victories, violence, peace, and survival (all combined in am amazingly colorful way), but because it has remained a vibrant democratic society over the past 50 years when the world has been changing at a much faster pace. The way we have upheld our secularism and social ideals as well as brought about social change shows that we certainly know how to administer our vast and diverse nation.

Sure, we have our problems. Every country has its own set of problems. So, what`s the solution? Martial law? Naah! Look around, look at other developing countries that have had decades of martial law.

Our problem is not as complex as it appears. We simply are a nation of extremely talented people ruled by a bunch of (mostly) untalented people. Education is key to getting rid of this. In the years to come, this will be resolved. In the meantime, we must do our work of nation-building to the best of our abilities and influence others around us to move in the same direction.

After the defeat

Re: UR #70

UR writes: ``...It is not a coincidence that the Pakistan military has been able to hold its own against an Indian army with resources ten times those of Pakistan..``

What nonsense! Considering all those past defeats (and the recent one in Kargil), nothing could be farther from the truth. And if the Pakistani military has been able to increase its effectiveness (from crappy to so-so) over the past several years, it is only because Pakistan spends 85% of its budget on military and foreign-debt servicing. That leaves nothing for `supporting institutions and infrastructure` that decide the outcome of a war.

UR also added: ``...India has not been able to do the same against China...``

Again, a very ill-informed assumption. India has complete military parity with China. The only difference is that the Chinese are more aggressive. Indeed, after realizing that India is no longer ruled by `doves` like Nehru (who dreamed of a non-violent panchsheel abiding world), and accepting that the world`s second-largest country is now on a military parity, the Chinese are taking care not to antagonize India. Look at how they recently took care not to anger the Indians during the Kargil conflict.

A Road To Siachen This is in response to OMAR1974 (re#26).

You really are ffrustrated, aren`t you? You simply are unable to hide your racial/religious hatred (that is why you refer to Indian women having the `saffron` mark, forgetting that there are more Muslims, Christians, and others in India than Pakistan).

Now, let me briefly comment on the points you make.

First, you say India is all about poor quality. Look who is talking! The Pakis cannot even make needles and pins without Chinese or other assistance.

May be we have had more aircraft losses than the (non)Islamic PAF. That is because our pilots fly more training missions than yours, and also, it is only the older aircraft that have problems. Indeed, over the next few years, we plan to phase out the older planes as new ones are inducted.

Our engineers and facilities are world class. That is why over HALF of all H-1 (hi-tech) work permits granted by the US go to Indians. Now, does that mean that our best and brightest are not opting for defence services? Not really. You see, due to our huge population, even after a large number of individuals joining private sector or going abroad, we do not have any shortage of bright and committed individuals. We are not intellectually bankrupt like the Pakis. By the way, all over the world, militaries are now having to try harder to attract the cream of the cream, and we are no exception.

Regarding your remark that Indians are not willing to die for their motherland, who do you think are responsible for kicking the butts of Paki soldiers in 1965, 1971, and now in Siachen and Kargil? If you read TIME (July 12, 1999), you will see Pakis telling tales of the heroic deeds of Indian soldiers. Remember, we Indians have survived over 7000 years. Inshallah, we will be the victors in every challenge that comes by. You cannot even begin to imagine the patriotic feelings among our men, women, and children irrespective of religion and background (am proud to say).

You wrongly claim that Indians in the state of Kashmir rejoice the shahadat of Indian soldiers. What`s the proof? From where do you get such information? From the `free`(Ha!Ha!) Paki press & media that has to print what the Islamic fundamentalist Paki government wants? By the way, a lot of Mohajirs and Balochis, Ahmadiyas and Sindhis also rejoice the death of Paki soldiers (the Paki military is dominated by arrogant Panjabis).

You refer to us as `kabutars` (pigeons). Pigeons are the symbols of peace. Yes, we are all for peace, but will defend our holy motherland at all costs; make no mistake.

Finally, a comment on how eagerly (unlike us), you Pakis keep coming up with ``numbers`, ``figures`` and ``facts``. This is an old trick to make the gullible believe the trash you dish out. Where do you get all those ``facts``? From your fundamentalist media whose job is to churn out crap (otherwise they will be screwed like Najam Sethi)? Or from your corrupt generals who need to keep your sinking morale up (otherwise the Pakistani people will start asking about what happened to all those billions of rupees)?

Stop hating blindly. Think. Analyze.

Let there be peace and tolerance.

Straight From the Heart: Dushman Kaun?

Ref: Godot

You said it was news to you that Ghalib wrote in Hindi. Well, what does `Hindi` mean, anyway? Anything that belongs to `Hind` is Hindi. Well, Ghalib did write in Hindi. By the way, if you thought he wrote in Urdu (which borrows its grammar from Hindi language and vocabulary from both Hindi and Farsi) and is an Indian (or Hindi) language. Yes, some Pakistanis also speak Urdu, but the language is Indian (just as Americans or Australians speak English but the language is British or of England).

India’s Failure of Imagination

A very flawed article. The very basic assumption made by Rohan is wrong. He says that if Kashmir problem is resolved, all will be well and Indians and the Pakistanis will live happily ever after. Nonsense! What he fails to understand is this: Pakistan was created (out of India) on the belief (on part of the Pakistanis) that we cannot live together peacefully or happily.

So, you see, the very reason for Pakistan`s existence as a nation will be questioned if India and Pakistan become `friends`. If the Kashmir problem is solved, I`m sure the Pakis will find another reason to quarrel with us.

Another point I wish to make is that Rohan, you have said ``...Indian soldiers are being killed like`dogs`..``. It appears you are a communist. In any case, you are full of sh..t! What kind of an Indian are you? In fact, you are not even a human being! It is due to people like you that India remained under foreign rule for centuries. If you wanted to refer to our martyrs (my salute to them), then you could simply have said they are dying (instead of using profanities). YOU ARE SICK.

By the way, India has always had a moral stand on the issue of Kashmir. The creation of Pakistan and the Pakis` demand of our state of Kashmir is based on their thinking that people of diverse backgrounds and religion cannot and must not live together. I refuse to buy that argument. BOTH the creation of Pakistan and Pakistan`s claim over our territory are wrong and unacceptable to me.

A Road To Siachen

Refer Ferozk #20

Yeah. The Paki spin has begun. Pakistanis, both in government and out of it, have started explaining away their defeat in Kargil (this defeat is the latest in the series of humiliating defeats Pakistan has suffered). Indeed, now that the Indians have begun capturing point after point (Tiger Hills, Batalik, ...), the Pakis are now trying to tell us how all this was planned. But the way Pak reinforcements are still trying to get into the Indian side and launch new offensives, this certainly was NOT an attempt to `hold and drop`. But then, how can you tell the world that you had your butts kicked! So, tell them that all this was `pre-planned`. Interesting. The spin is on.

Falsehoods Galore This in response to Ras Siddiqui.

Mr Siddiqui, you have unnecessarily tried to say that Ms Khan thinks of Pakistanis as `lowly` people. She did not say anything to that effect in her article, and it is unfair for you to vent your anger over what certainly are some true facts about Pakistan (in the article).

You also referred to yourself as a person of `Pakistani` origin. That is wrong. All Pakistanis are of Indian origin. Like it or not, the whole landmass, which you now call `Pakistan`, is of Indian origin!

About Kashmir: You people have already taken away a large piece of land (Pakistan) from India and still want more (Kashmir)! How greedy can you be? The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural,lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken

against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its

future? These double-standards of Pakistan has convinced us and the world that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing human lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).

Let peace be everywhere, and let us work together for a better, safer future.

A Visit to Pakistan This is in response to Faraz.

Dear Faraz, you counter my opinion (about how wrong and unacceptable partition was) by asking whether we should also consider Independence a `wrong` thing since it was negotiated by un-elected people.

Well, firstly, I am glad that I was able to bring to your notice that an important decision like partition of a country was wrongly thrust upon an unwilling majority.

Now, independence was different. Why? Well, it was a campaign run by every Indian from Karachi to Dhaka to Madras. On the other hand, the issue of partition was discussed/debated and negotiated only by a handful of people amongst themselves (the riots took place AFTER it was decided by the self-styled leaders that partition will happen; in fact the riots showed how a situation can go out of hand if something is thrust upon an unwilling population). The people of India had no say over the matter (partition). Apart from that, Independence was an act of undoing a wrong incidence--the colonization and exploitation of India. On the other hand, partition was an act of breaking up a country against the will of the majority of people, who generally are very emotional about `desh` and `sarzameen`. Moreover, partition was the result of personal differences and power-struggle between Nehru and Jinnah. Some Pakistanis justify partition by saying that the Hindus would have suppressed them if they hadn`t broken away. What about the time when a Muslim minority (Islamic invaders from Central Asia) ruled over India (mostly non Muslims) for centuries? As you can see, even today a large number of Muslims (like me) live in India and are in no way oppressed. Indeed, in keeping with democratic values, the majority rules. At the same time, India`s secular constitution gives everyone equal opportunity, and most Indians firmly believe in secularism (except a handful of fanatics; there are more fanatics in Pakistan today).

Falsehoods Galore This in response to what UR posted:

My friend, you have got it all wrong! What makes you think my views are similar to Milosevic`s? Indeed, as a Muslim, the last thing I would like to see is killing/massacres.

You contend that Kashmiris are not the ``same people`` as other Indians and that is why Pakistan wants Kashmir to secede from the Indian Union. Well, India is a diverse country with 32 states and territories, with more than 20 languages and scores of dialects, several religions, etc. In your opinion, all other states of India too should break away! Ridiculous! Indeed, that way, you are giving legitimacy to demands of Sindhudesh in Pakistan. Similarly, the Balochis, Mohajirs, Ahmadiyas etc too should take away a piece of Pakistan and form their own countries.

The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural, lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its future? I again insist that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing innocent lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).

It is also wrong to compare India`s freedom struggle agains the British to the TERRORISM IN KASHMIR. The British were outsiders (like the Moghuls) and a minority. They colonised us and exploited our resources, taking away our fundamental rights. In the case of Kashmir, the Kshmiris are Indians (like you and me; yes, you too are of Indian origin!) living in a diverse and SECULAR country, enjoying the same rights as the rest of their countrymen (and women).

You guys also have a distorted view about India`s internal situation, thinking that we are having dozens of `freedom struggles`. The Sikh problem is already over. There is no other major problem, except sporadic incidents in the state of Assam. My friend, you cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it can be for any country of such size and diversity to maintain 100% peace. Pakistan, which is 100% Muslim and much smaller, still faces the Sindhudesh, Mohajir, Balochi uprisal, etc. Try to understand the complexities, and you will learn to appreciate how well we Indians have managed ourselves.

Najib Qureshi

Falsehoods Galore

Let me begin by congratulating Ms Khan for such a balanced, thoughtful, and absorbing article. I enjoyed reading it.

I have also noticed that this article has generated a very healthy debate, with people coming up with all kinds of arguments and counter-arguments. I don`t know if that yields anything, but as an Indian, I like free flow of thoughts and expression.

Many say that the Kashmiris should have the right to self-determination. Well, why? Did the rest of Indians have the same rights (in 1947)? Why wasn`t a referendum held in 1947 to decide whether the Indian people wanted partition? If a referendum had been held, the Indian masses would have rejected the idea of partition. But the British, Nehru, Jinnah, etc (all non-elected people, with no mandate to represent Indians) went ahead and wrongly partitioned the country.

Anyway, what can we do at this time? Well, what do people do when they no longer want to live in their usual place of birth or residence? Of course, they emigrate. They go to UK, US, etc. Similarly, if Kashmiris (or ANYONE from India, for that matter) do not want to live in India, they are free to go to Pakistan or anywhere else. Will Pakistan accept that? Perhaps not. You see, the Pakis are NOT interested in the well-being of the Kashmiris. They just want the land and also want to score a point with the Indians. The people of India are determined not to let that happen. And, Inshallah, India will emerge as the victor in the current and future imbroglios.

A Visit to Pakistan

There is nothing very special or outstanding about Mr Vyasulu`s article. He is one of those people who think that the enemy can be be-friended by being good to him. So, he talks of how wonderful the Pakis are and how amazing everything is over there, without going deep into underlying facts.

For example, at one place Mr Vyasulu says that he was dazed by the flashy cars in Islamabad. Well, those were imported cars. We Indians make our own cars and are self-sufficient in almost all other fields too. That is why the recent sanctions (after nuclear tests) had no effect on us, while it sent Pakistan into near bankruptcy.

Mr Vyasulu also talks about a feeling that most Pakistanis have (according to him). He says that Pakistanis hate India because they think that we do not accept them as a country. Well, the fact is something else. The Pakistanis KNOW that partition was illegitimate and wrong. Indeed, they know that the British or Congress and Muslim League leaders were NOT democratically elected representatives of the Indian people, and therefore had no right to make decisions that affected the lives of the Indian masses so severely. A matter as important as partition of a country should have been decided through a referendum (of course, if a referendum had been conducted, a majority of Indians would have rejected partition). It is this knowledge that worries the Pakis. Pakistan itself could be regarded as a disputed territory. That of course means that we should be talking about undoing partition, NOT about ownership of Kashmir!

Finally, I would like to add that Mr Vyasulu apparently tried to be Mr Sugar-coated Nice-man during his visit to Pakistan. He often appeared to be sympathetic to the most ridiculous Paki viewpoints, instead of standing up for his own country`s viewpoints or position. He failed to be an effective ambassador of his country and people.

A Road To Siachen

This is one of the most ridiculous analyses I have ever come across! Mr Khan is merely trying to piece together an essay aimed at misinforming and ill-informing the readers. Many of the ``facts`` mentioned by him are nonsensical gibberish of drunk Pak generals at hush-hush cocktail parties.

For example, he says that at one time the Indian Army could not pay its officers! From where did he get this crap? What do you think our Army is? The Pak federal government? For the record, yes, it is true that India (unlike rogue states like China or Pakistan) has been continuously cutting down defence spending and allocating those resources to more productive purposes. This is in keeping with our peaceful motives and intent. But our soldiers are well taken care of. The defence budget cuts certainly have made things harder, but on a relative basis, we can still kick China`s pants off! Pakistan is not even a concern. It is just a nuisance, promoting terrorism.

In one breath, he says India overwhelmingly out-matches the Pak Navy just in numbers and ships etc. Yet, he also says that the Pakis have `parity` with Indian Navy, just beacuse some Pak admirals have cooked up an `apparently` infallible `strategy`! Come on, has he completely forgotten the immense damage that our aircraft carrier INS Vikrant inflicted on Pak?

Amazingly, Mr Khan contends that the Pakis have military parity (even superiority) with India. FALSE! The Pak army decided not to intervene directly and fight a proxy war instead (by using terrorists who shamelessly use Islam to justify their misdeeds). This was based on just one conclusion: Fghting a war against India would lead to yet another humiliation for the Pak army.

India has a superiority over the Pakis in ALL fields. This should not be seen by Pakistanis as a discomforting fact. The basic problem with Pakistanis is that they are keen on `competing` with a country 10 times bigger. Something like Nepal trying to compete with China! The result? Pakistan spends 85% of its resources on just two things: servicing foreign loans and spending on its military (the corrupt generals like that!).

When will Pakistan learn? It is now only HALF its original size and has lost three wars since its inception. It should pay more attention to the mis-treatment of Mohajirs and Ahmadiyas, and the possible creation of Sindhudesh.

Kargil Issue I would like to insist that the partition of India and creation of `Pakistan` was wrong, illegal, and immoral.

The handful of people (the British, Congress, and Muslim League leaders) were NOT democratically elected representatives of the Indian people. In fact, any decision of such importance should have been taken only after a referendum. We all know that in case of a referendum, majority of Indians would have rejected partition.

So, Indians do have the right to refuse to accept the existence of Pakistan as a `country`. Pakistan is a disputed territory now, and must go back to India.

Indeed, it is funny that the Indians living in the Pakistan Province of India are asking for plebiscite etc in our states while no opinion of the Indian people was taken in 1947 before partitioning the country!