Why I’m proud to be a Pakistani Yes, bibi, it is mushy, shamelessly contemporary, unthinkingly an attempt at being philosophical, with an aawurd injection of unsuccessful wish to sound literary.

The statement, as it stands as a whole, is so old and musty, so meaningless, so incosequential in its stated or deduced and assumed objective -- and, the misfortune of having been understood so by your readers -- that one cannot but help question, even in a neutral sense, the reason, the motive, the t`ook for writing such an essay. Or, such an essay with such a title.

You know, and I do, that this essay has nothing to do with Pakistan, nor with your reasons to love it or with its claim, however weakly and impotently, to be loved or being lovable.

You are addressing fetid questions, already asked from times immemorial, in terms no better than the so-oft-used malodorous cliches, that it becomes a test of the qari`s patience and the degree of the ability to keep sense of shame in abeyance long enough to read it in its entirety.

At the level of a general statement or an analytical commentary the essay would have had a low claim to respect, yes, even effectiveness, in terms of the ``variables`` I allude to above. At an abstract level, perhaps the claim would have been stronger, though still weak.

Most unhappily, it seem to have been offered as a substantive statement and the readrs [of only a few of whose ``Replies`` I was able to read] seem to have taken it to be a ``realistic``, physical question of description; in its literal sense, that is.

I am no teacher. I say what I feel, as a reaction to the reality I encounter and experience. I call something a spade if I feel I see a spade. You are more experienced and very well educated, it appears. {Not every body gets to be tutored by a Khalid Sahib Ph.D., you see!)

By looking at your list of previously written essays and columns, it also appears that you are a prolific writer.

If you haven`t already, then you are bound to keep giving sustenance to Pakistani journalism and literature. In the final analysis, if you are doing work which makes you feel proud of yourself, and you have helped develop conditions in your society that allow you to do that job unfettered and in conditions of freedom and feelings of independence, then, that alone is enough to make you feel proud of and in love with such a Pakistan. Best wishes.

A Rumor Of Lies #: 14

cheraym

Dear Observer:

Here you are contradicting yourself from your earlier post when we encouraged Mohajir to post the useful sites... .

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

May-31-00 9:56:8 EST Reply #: 70

[From the board `Where did Pakistan go Wrong?`]

Observer

Re. Cheraym #68

URLs are enough. We don`t need both the URL //AND// the reproduction. It is redundant. ... .``

Dear Madam: Do you really see a contradiction?

Sincerely,

Observer

A Rumor Of Lies [borrowed]From South Asia Citizens Web May 31, 2000

Saw it. Thought it might inyerest some.

[ The below message from ... . (a Peace activist from Pakistan) explains the Peace Banner campaign; Recently such banners for peace and in opposition to Nuclear bombs were made and put up in Pakistan to mark the 2nd anniversary of the Pakistani Nuclear tests (may 98).

Cloth Banner Campaign for the 6th August

Dear All,

This is a follow up msg. I`m sending this msg to friends in Pakistan and India (and to overseas Indo-Pak friends). Clothe banner campaign was a huge success despite the fact that we started it on the 11th May and collected signatures till 28th May. Diversity of messages, colours and languages made it into such an interesting cloth banner spread over more than 100 meters.

Thanks to friends in Karachi (Piler), Lahore (Shirkat Gah, Labour Party, Amnesty International, Peshawar (Sungi), Quetta (Naela Qadri) and all

others Islamabad based NGOs and students at the Khuldunia High School, Quaid-iAzam University and the Hamdard University. Messages from Quetta were

particularly touching with young school children printing their hands and painting wonderful things on the clothe. Needless to say, Dr. Nayyar`s and

Shandana`s contributions made a crucial difference.

I have received some banners after the 28th May. It gives a sense that we should continue this campaign. I would suggest the following:

1) we should keep on getting signatures in Pakistan. Pakistan NGO Federation can play a crucial role in this regard. If we are able to get signatures from various rural and urban communities with which most NGOs work, it would

be a massive contribution to the campaign.

2) various peace groups in India should initiate this campaign over there.

I`ll explain the details for our Indian friends.

a) divide the white clothe into one meter @ one meter square pieces.

b) write one liner main msg for peace (bread not bombs etc.) with a bold marker in the middle.

c) ask people to write their messages for peace (or against nuclear weapons), names, signatures and date around the main message.

d) if possible please use bold pens of various colours (some of the pieces of clothe were signed by ballpoint pen and they were not readable) and the messages should be spread out on the piece of clothe.

e) by 1st august, those pieces of cloth should be stitched together and after every three-four pieces, extra clothe should be added to create space for a bamboo stick,

f) once all the clothe pieces are stitched together, then insert 7 feet long (half inch diameter) bamboo sticks just before the demonstration. These sticks will hold the banner.

3) overseas friends can mail the banners to groups in India and Pakistan.

If that`s not feasible then they can send email messages and we can paste email print outs on our banners.

What Do We Do With These Banners?

I would suggest we should use them as a vote of no confidence against nuclear weapons by the subcontinent`s silent majority. We should organise a huge press publicity campaign to spread the msg of these banners across to the decision-makers and war mongers in India and Pakistan. Right now i can

think of 2 options:

[i] Peace groups in India and Pakistan can march to Wagha border and demonstrate these hundreds of meter long banner with signatures for peace on

the both side of the border,

[ii] If that`s not a feasible option and people want to consider a more local way to display these signatures, then we can go and symbolically wrap the important government building in each city with these long banners. For example, if we get enough signatures in Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Quetta and Peshawar to make a banner in each city, the we can walk to the President`s House in Islamabad and the governor houses in the respective provinces to mark the day. Indian groups can do the same in their cities.

Please pass on this message to all the people on your mailing lists.

Where did Pakistan go wrong? Cheraym #68

URLs are enough. We don`t need both the URL //AND// the reproduction. It is redundant.

Your letter betrays a condescending and patronizing attitude -- unnecessary -- and re-inforces the suspicion of laziness on the part of those who, as the kindergarten children, like to be fed information pablum rather than doing their own reading.

Sadia Afroze Ali Urstruly #58

It has always been my impression that Bhutto was loosely translating the American expression, ``they won`t have a leg to stand on``; symbolically meaning pretty much the same thing as you have indicated in your post.

However, I have met ``verbatim`` quotes from Pakistanis fighting this interpretation. Would, does, your research indicate that he may, indeed, have meant that ``they won`t have a leg to stand on``?

Best wishes.

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking Fuzair #

Yes, it helped. And, Thank you. I am grateful.

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking F_K #204

Thank you for your response to my question. I folow you [except for two words ``laanat bur``. I couldn`t find them in any dictionary].

No, it was ``historical``. I ignore the hysterical, can afford to, but not so with historical, which, unhappily, has a tendency -- when long and royally irrelevant -- to induce headache.

I am in your debt.

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking Fuzair #205

Here I am, again.

the word was supposed to be, ``catamitism``. A noun. The pronoun of which would be a ``catamite``, seen on the Chowk on many boards.

I asked a last question: What do Pakistanis of the Chowk intend to do about it, if at all? Either it escaped your attention or you felt that skirting around it should be the best answer. It is alright with me either way.

Best wishes.

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking I should like very much for some Pakistani Chowkwallas` response to the following.

[I do not feel I really NEED or DESIRE input on the it from the well-wishing friends from the South of Pakistan]:

I just learned about the Supreme Court of Pakistan`s verdict on the legitimacy of military`s rule in Pakistan.

1. Is there a provision in the Constitution of Pakistan for the army to take over governing of the country if the Chief of Army or Joint Chiefs feels that the State`s integrity and future is in danger?

2. If not, can ANYBODY take a few mercenaries, occupy the main radio and TV statins in the capital, arrest the Prime Minister and start running the country?

3. If the present ruler handpicked and appointed the judges of the SC, then what is the meaning of their verdict of legitimacy and expression of ``independence of Judiciary`` by asking him to step down after three years?

4. Does the Court not give the Junta:

a. in fact, more time than it would have expected to get otherwise (International patience and internal accaptance-wise),

b. a `legal` life saver of legitimacy by enabling the Junta to claim, internally and internationally, that they have been given legitimacy and a mendate by the HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND to rule for three years?

Finally: Does this three year period begin from October 12, 1999, or from the date of the Court decision, namely May 12, 2000?

b. The catamism of the nation has been established on more occasion(s) than one. But besides wasting time incessantly, and fruitlessly, on the Chowk, what do you Pakistanis intend to do about it? Or do you?

Please let`s not become historical abot it. I shall appreciate a straight forward answer. The shorter, the sweeter. Thanks.

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking My dear temporal:

Thanks for your post re. my post to the Webmasters of Chowk. I am grateful.

I can see how the following paragraph could have created a bit of a confusion.

``This is very annoying. I cannot be `made to read` a piece -- since it is in front of me -- and not know where did it come from?``

It was not a complaint against their demeanour but that of the posters`. If we, however unnecessarily, prefix it with, ``You will agree with me that...``, then the intention becomes aggressively civil and excruciatingly clear.

My hope was that the Webmaster(s) would announce it in the Chowk, as a matter of policy, that a minimum of reference is required to make the item traceable, authenticatable, and, in the event needed, quotable and citable.

Most sincerely yours,

``Observer``

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking Sexna #146 and Foot in the Face (? or something like that, was it ``in the face of the mouth? Forgive me for I have forgotten) #155.

I don`t think that in the English, French or German languages is there a livelier expression than (and as expressive! as) ``Oh, bevqoofa!``. I like it and I shall use it. I am learning this language (in fact I already know it quite well) and this is my favourite expression.

So, Sexna and ``In the mouth``, O` bevqoofa, I knew what the article was. Sexna put it in because he agreed with it. Hence it represented his thoughts.

You all have blinders (khhopey?) on your eyes. You are so categorical in thinking, Indians about ten times more than the Pakistanis, that the moment a person criticizes India you assume Pakistani behind it. No hesitation, no doubt, to lump people into nationalities just because they say something you like or dislike. You, for instance couldn`t see that I was neither an Indian nor a Pakistani. Just an observer.

O` bevqoofa, if you `could care less`, then why didn`t you? I take it that after the fashion of rustic, illitrate Americans, you also do not distinguish between ``I couldn`t care less`` and ``I could care less``. You see, ``I couldn`t care less`` is the same genre as ``it cannot be overemphasized``. That is, a limit has been reached. It couldn`t be less than this, ... ``

Next I will hear from you ``Irregardless of... . Tell you what, allthat malarky about Live in Rome... is just that, malarky. People like you should live in Rome as educated and civilized Romans live.

Master Sexna: Dear fellow, what do you plan to do when you grow up?

Incidentally, as, I think, Syedha used to say, are you two smoking bananas these days? But seriously, what are you two on these days? Stay away from the antihistamines. They are not`joy`medications.

To end, and put some buddhi back in your gourds, see below a letter sent to the Webmasters/owners of Chowk. I knew precisely what the letter was. I just didn`t like the high-school-habit, bad and ugly, of not indicating reference to citations.





Subject: Referenceless articles on the Chowk



Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:04:03 -0500

From: M [...e.com]

To: info@Chowk.com

Part 1.1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

Encoding: 7bit

info@Chowk.com



Subject: Referenceless articles on the Chowk Priority: Highest



Dear Sirs and Madams:

I just read letter #123 on the ... [Harish Nambiar] board. It has no reference to its origin, nor even an implied notion as to its source etc.

This is very annoying. I cannot be ``made to read`` a piece -- since it is in front of me -- and not know where did it come from?

I should be very pleased to know the source of that piece so I can place it in its proper context and perspective. Thanks.

Sincerely,

[``observer``]

Now, to come back to my post: I suggest that you think about it seriously. Reflect upon it. It is a `felt` and serious post.

Don`t for ever be a jack ass.

Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking

Ref.SexnaR 123

I opened Chowk and saw a post by Sexna citing a Nigerian Dignitary demanding Pakistan`s immediate return to democracy, while pounding the desk or table for emphasis.

Oh, bevqoofa, Pakistanis on the Chowk were the first and still the most vociferous in demanding the return of Pakistan to democracy. TouN whaii kehrreii khudd ichhouN nik`l kay aa gaiyaN aiN.

Hey man, all these nations and their national leaders have their respective skeletons in their own closets. Indonesia as a democracy, before and after Soekarno? Ecevit invaded Nicosia and was rewarded with his own dismissal in 1976. The Turkish democracy has the Armed Forces` role embedded in their Constitution. And Nigeria? Oh, bevqoofa, kujh tey shr`m k`r. You go ahead and insult yourself to your heart`s content. But at least spare our intelligence.

Have you read a book by Rohinton Mistry, ``A Fine Balance``? A Booker-Prize-nominated work. Read it. It delineats the ``Emergency`` in India. I was in India during the ``emergency``. People remember it. I don`t understand what are you jumping up and down for.

When you look at India and Pakistan you won`t find much difference between the two. We, in India, simply go by a few more shibboleths and designations than the Pakistanis do.

Except for a short period of time during that devil, Zulmat`s, time, Pakistan under military rule was no different in everyday life than the so-called ``Democratic`` India. We have simply repeated this fraudulent expression so many times to ourselves that we have come to believe it ourselves. Most of you who don`t tire of talking about ``Democracy in India`` are a miniscule elite of urban [original or adopted] background. Take my word. You are it.

Democracy, in India? Quit repeating it to yourselves and believing it. You sound like Hitler`s pupils.

Go to your lower class areas in cities, go to your rural areas, and you`ll know the extent of ``Democracy`` in India. This democracy almost deprived me of my youngest son because, but for the greedy but perhaps feeling taxi driver, I would have been given a vasectomy, courtesy the late Mr. Sanjay Gandhi, whose troops were stopping people near Kashmiri Gate and giving them the gift of ``Democracy`` right in their groin. It wasn`t done even in China.

I have read so much about India being a ``Secular`` State on these boards. In effect, Pakistan has, for most part, been the same kind of a Secular State as India. It just didn`t have its promoters from within and without to blow trumpets of ``Democracy`` and ``Secularism``.

If you don`t find Indus and Sikhs in Pakistan, it is not because of any ``ethnic cleansing`` [as I have read some Pakistanis saying foolishly in agreement with the Indians].

These communities left Pakistan more or less voluntarily in a sound and prosperous, and note this, safe condition than you can imagine. Of course, there were riots. And of course there was blood and mayhem, but very little as a proactive action; most of it was as a reaction, much later in the summer, to the East Punjab situation, which WAS ethnic cleansing of Muslims in earnest.

Urban Indus, being prosperous and educated and in Government Services, were able to ``PLAN`` in advance. A majority of them had left their houses and property in the care of some Muslim friends and neighbours telling them that they would be back after six to ten weeks. They left in relatively more calm and civilized circumstances, without being hurt, at least physically.

It was only as a result of the wholesale butchering of East Punjab Muslims that they [the Indus] decided not to come back.

Having said that let me look at Pakistan. It appears that Pakistan has been as much of a ``Secular`` State as India has been, even when one takes into consideration the Ahmadi situation. Mind you, I do not say at all that Pakistan has been a BETTER Secular, in-fact, State than India, but that India, in-fact, has not been a better Secular State than Pakistan.

Certainly, in Pakistan, there are no incidents of a nature that happen in India all the time in which the army surrounds a mohallah or a whole sections of a town (e.g., the one in Ali Garrh, in November-December, 1978) and let loose the killers who carry out Sabra and Shatila operations. [Other dates for this nature of mayhem are 1963, 64, 68, 74, 76 (many times), and 85. to count just a few.]

Sexna, you quit monkeying around and become a bandé da. You are not unassailable in your arguments, insults and pure insulting ramblings. Now cut it out.

Memories of the Monsoon Sawanr, the time of monsoons in my country of childhood, stands out as a unique part of my life that I hold dear to me. The whole spirit of joy and romance is the treasured memory in my life. It is because of this special place in my life for the Sawanr that I am sad to see this thread having been neglected by my `colleagues` in the Chowk. Sanwanr gives water to our rivers which our Plains use to grow crops and prosper. These rivers that have been used as a blackmail by India against Pakistan.

Even the Indus Basin Treaty has been unfair to Pakistan. Under this treaty, my great uncle, Sunder Das Sood, tells me that Pakistan lost. The River Ravi and Sutluj`s waters have been diverted towards India but when the monsoon`s rains threaten floods in India, they open the supply of water towards Pakistan and many cities and hundreds of villages bear the cosequences of the resulting floods. Hundreds of lives are lost and loss to the lives of survivors is inestimable. He says that he doesn`t know which Einstein figured out this solution to water problems of India and Pakistan. It`s like leaving the loading chamber and the trigger of a lethal [water?] gun in the hands of India and the barrel in the hands of Pakistan.

Dada Ji Sunsoo told me this because he is from Lahore and thinks that because of this calumny on India`s part his `dearer than life` Lahore gets inundated almost every year and causes havoc.

He wonders if the Noor Jehan`s mausoleum gets ruined because of these floods. He cites some poetry, by Munshi Talok Chand Mehroom, about this mausoleum:

Ain. Din ko bhi, yahan shub ki siahi ka sama/n hai [he spelled it for me].

This dampens my romance of Sawanr and that makes me sad. He says there is only one solution. And that is, that India should get the h-ll out of Kashmir. The Britishers consolidated a lot, quite a lot, of territory which never was part of India

as a country or nation and left most it to India [as British India], to Indians, than existed before they came. The Indians should not be just land hungry and kill people and destroy land, in the process of grabbing it. According to him, India can develop just the Andeman and Nicobar

islands into a tropical haven/heaven better than the ``Fantasy Island`` where Mr. UBV can be a crier, and shout, ``the plane, the plane``, (He doesn`t like the current Prime Minister of India!) and make more money than what they know what to do with.

In any case, I think that India should leave its savage control over Kashmir and Kashmiris or else Lord Vishnu will wreak such havoc on them that their next 100 generations will remember it.

Somebody do something to save my Sawanr!

Different Eagles, Same Genus The following appeared in my mail a few days ago. I didn`t know what to do with it. Then I thought what better place than Chowk. So, here it is. Comment away:

*The violence against Christians in India must stop by Pritam K. Rohila, Ph.D.

As human beings, the crown of God`s creation, we may have lost our tail, but we have not yet lost some characteristics of our evolutionary forefathers. We may have learnt to walk

straight, but some of us are so affected by the rhetoric of hate that we are unable to think straight.

Yugoslavs against Albanians in Kosovo, Catholics against Protestants in some parts of Mexico, Christian Coalition against Blacks and gays in some parts of USA, Sunnis against Shias

in Pakistani Punjab, Muslims vs. Christians in eastern Indonesia, and in India upper castes Hindus against the lower castes in Bihar, Muslims against Hindus in Jammu & Kashmir - ately, lines have been drawn between neighbors on account of religion, caste, ethnicity, sexual orientation or some other similar excuse. Human beings are

wreaking their anger on other human beings.

Now, in India, some insecure Hindus have made Christians the targets of their wrath. In Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, and now in Orissa Christians have been singled out for persecution by them. As

a policy we do not comment in ACHA Bulletin on such incidents. Instead, we carry a column on Peace and Communal Harmony News. But our outrage at some of the recent incidents in India forces us to register our protest against this systematic persecution of a minority. Also, we want the world to know that these self-appointed defenders of Hindu faith do not speak or act for our Hindu members.

Some people say, only a few Christians have been hurt and that most Christians are not affected by what is happening. We ask them, ``Rapes of how many women, burning alive of how many missionaries and their children, destruction of how many houses of worship, infliction of fear in how many hearts, will be enough before the

persecution of a minority should be stopped?``

If providing literacy, health services, or better treatment to our outcastes and down trodden can be called ``inducement to conversion`` or ``forcible conversion,`` then why the members of the majority who have access to more means don`t use the same ways to induce them away from the

missionaries? Why do we have to resort to violence and threats of violence instead?

It boils to the matter of how we go about resolving our disagreements with others. To win the argument civilized and cultured people use dialog, not violence. Rape, murder, and destruction of property, initiated either by the

majority or the minority, is just not acceptable.

It is true a minority, in any country, should be aware of the cultural heritage of the majority. They should appreciate those aspects of the majority culture that do not conflict with their own faith. They should not deliberately offend

the sensibilities of the majority community. But, the majority also must do the same towards the minority. It should appreciate the insecurities experienced by the minority, and go an extra mile to assuage their fears and to respects the basic human right of the minority to practice, preserve and propagate its own culture and religion.

Just like sexual ``advances`` by a girl-child is not acceptable in any court of law as a defense by an adult male, initiation of conflict by a minority is not an adequate excuse by the majority`s attempt tp subjugate the former by

force.



OPINION

*A case for conversion by Vir Sanghvi (From Rediff on the NeT ... .)

Why have those of us who pride ourselves on our secular instincts been so slow to react to the violence against the Christian community? Christians have been complaining of attacks for four months now. And yet, it is only recently

that we have paid any attention to their complaints.

There are two answers to this question. The first is the pat response. The attacks struck us as being isolated instances and it wasn`t till sections of the extended Sangh Parivar stepped up

the pace of assaults in the aftermath of the assembly election that we realized that there was a pattern or a conspiracy behind the attacks.

But there is also a second, deeper answer to the question. To see the attacks as part of a campaign against Christians would be to miss the point. Of course, Indian Christians are the

ultimate target but as of now, the campaign has been packaged not so much as an anti-Christian movement but as a campaign against foreign missionaries who engaged in conversions.

This is why it has failed to generate the kind of secular outrage that it should have. Because the truth is that most Hindus, no matter how secular, are ambivalent about missionaries and hostile to the concept of conversions.

Our relationship with Christian missionaries is the most complex. Many of us have been educated at convent and Jesuit schools and continue to send our children to such schools. But, at some

subliminal level, we resent the fact that such schools require children to sing Christian hymns, say Christian prayers and - at least in the case of the Jesus school I attended as a child - make the sign of the cross every morning.

We resent also that many such schools (again judging by my own experience) refuse to seriously entertain the possibility that Jesus Christ`s way is not the only one or to confer Indian faiths

with any respect. Some even require children to spend their lunch breaks raising money for missionary activities.

For many years, the Indian middle class - both Hindu and Muslim - has coped uneasily with the more Christian aspects of education such schools provide. A friend of mine, the daughter of a prominent (and entirely secular) Bharatiya Janata Party leader recalls going to a temple when she was a child. ``Beti, prarthana karo (daughter, say your prayers),`` said the pujari . At this, the poor girl launched into the only prayer she knew: ``Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...`` Needless to say, there were embarrassed

faces all around.

But even those Hindus who have minded the overtly Christian nature of education have not dared withdraw their children because they know that, whatever their drawbacks, such schools

provide an education that is generally superior to that offered elsewhere. And once you choose to let your children remain in a Jesuit or a convent school, then you lose the right to complain. (In my own case, my father withdrew me after two years when he wearied of my making the sign of the cross each time I was upset and objected to my saying ``Amen`` at the end of every sentence).

Nevertheless, though Hindus accept that those who voluntarily choose to send their kids to such schools must accept the whole package (hymns and all), they remain resentful. This is why Kalyan Singh touched a chord in the heart of a many parents when he asked whether Muslims who objected to Vande Mataram would now withdraw their children from Catholic schools as well.

When it comes to conversions, Hindus are even more resentful. Try arguing with any secular Hindu about conversions and after five minutes of political correctness, you end up against a stone wall. Try explaining that our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and that this must include the right to preach your faith as well as the right to change your religion, and you will get nowhere. Point out that most liberal democracies - including Christian countries - allow conversions, and you will be met with disbelief. Explain that nobody in England penalized the mullahs who converted Cat Stevens to Islam or that the US allows the Hari Krishna movement to convert hristians at will, and these examples will be dismissed as being of no consequence.

Worse still, such is the arrogance of most Hindus that we seem to actually believe that no Hindu ever converts of his own volition. The conversions, we decide, are either forcible or achieved through inducements. The reality is that there are many people at the margins of Hindu society - dalits, tribals, lower castes and so on - who have no reason to cling to a faith that oppresses them. But even when such persons

convert, this is seen as a conspiracy by fiendish foreign missionaries.

(One measure of the resentment was available when dalit Christians asked for reservations. Almost to a man Hindu society jumped up and blew a raspberry in their direction. ``Now that you`ve

converted, why should you get the benefits we give our dalits?`` was the refrain. When the hapless Christian pointed out that there was caste prejudice within the Christian community, the Hindu delight was palpable: ``Serves you right! Serves you right! And you thought you`d be better off! Ha!``)

The brilliance of the Sangh Parivar`s campaign is that it taps into these Hindu

resentments. If the Parivar said that it wanted to beat up poor Mr Gomes down the road because he was a Christian, most Hindus would be outraged.

Instead it says: we are targeting Father Fat Cat and the foreign funds he uses for conversion. And while Hindus do not exactly cheer the Parivar along, they are less outraged.

The modus operandi is familiar. The Parivar pulled exactly the same routine during the Ayodhya agitation. The attack was directed at the Muslim eadership which refused to abandon a discussed mosque even though it marked the birthplace of Lord Rama. Why, asked the likes of L K Advani, should Muslims bother to compromise when they have been so pampered by the secular establishment? The Shahi Imam wants the Shah Bano judgment reversed; he gets his way. Syed Shahbuddin wants The Satanic Verses banned; he gets his way.

If the attack had been framed in terms of ordinary Muslim, it would have been less attractive. Had the Parivar said it was targeting Ali, the peon in your office, Hindus would have had nothing to get agitated about. But once the

attack tapped into existing resentments and targeted Shahbuddin and the Shahi Imam, it found many supporters.

Of course, as the Ayodhya agitation demonstrated, once the movement gets under way, it is never the ostensible targets who get hurt. The Shahi Imam is as well off today as he was 10 years

ago. It is poor Ali the peon whose house has been burnt. And with relations between the communities set back 20 years, Hindus have suffered nearly

as much as Muslims.

The anti-Christian agitation will probably go the same way. Father Fat Cat will take a plane out. Poor Mr Gomes will get stabbed. If we are to avoid a repetition of the trauma of the Ram

movement, then three things are necessary.

One: Hindus must recognize that their resentments against missionaries and conversions are basically irrational.

Two: Indian Christians should not be carried away into making common cause with foreign missionaries. And three: the State must act to nip the violence in the bud.

Otherwise, we can expect more Toyota raths, more madness, more mayhem and more murder.

*Figure this out: The truth about Hindus and Christians by Amberish K Diwanji (The Rediff Special... .)

There are three kinds of untruths: lies, damned lies and statistics!

Statistics is the primary weapon employed by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) to buttress its version on the conversions controversy - the faster growth rate of the Christian (and Muslim,

though the focus at present is not on them) population as opposed to that of the Hindus.

The VHP points to the census undertaken in 1991 as its reference, and the growth in the period between 1981 and 1991 (the next census is due only in 2001).

There is no denying that some of the figures are incredible. In Arunachal Pradesh, the Christian population in the decade in question registered a growth of 225.98 per cent! The Muslim growth rate was at 135.01 per cent, while the Hindu growth rate was 73.34 per cent.

The VHP says it is in the North-East that the maximum conversion has taken place and that is the region where missionaries are the most active. To back its statement, it cites the 1991 census.

But John Dayal, convenor of the United Christian Forum for Human Rights, accuses the VHP of quoting figures out of context. ``Statistics are the Devil`s instrument,`` he says. ``At the time of

Independence, the Christian population in the Dangs district [in Gujarat] was slightly less than 500 and today it is around 7,500. Is an increase of 7,000 people in 50 years really too much?``

Dayal also points out that Christianity in India has grown much slower than in

the rest of the world. The 1991 census states that there were 7,824 Christians in the Dangs, up from 1,514 in 1981. This works out to a percentage increase of almost 500. In the same period, the state of Gujarat registered a population growth of

21.19 per cent. While the Hindu population grew by 21.12, Christians grew by 36.96 and Muslims by 24.05.

But statistics tell just half a story. Perhaps this is why the VHP depends wholly

on percentages (it gave absolute numbers only when Rediff On The NeT asked for them specifically) while the Christian groups prefer to highlight

numbers rather than percentages.

Explains Dr Ashish Bose, a leading demographer: ``As any statistician will tell you, when the figures are small, percentages appear huge; and when the figures are huge, the percentages appear small.`` An example: Adding 2 to

10 is a 20 per cent increase, adding 2 to 100 is just a 2 per cent increase. Thus, for Uttar Pradesh today to register a 10 per cent growth in population needs 10 million people, more than the

population of the entire North-East excluding Assam!

Yet, is this five-fold increase in the Christian population in the Dangs possible? Says Bose, ``Growth is caused by births, deaths and migration. In the Dangs, and in other tribal areas, the birth rate is going down. The death rate remains high and hence these two cannot explain the high growth. Regarding migration, Dangs is a poor and backward district that few would want to migrate to. In these circumstances,

the only possible explanation left for the five-fold increase will be conversion.``

But he hastens to add that the conversions are just a drop in the ocean. ``Even in the Dangs, Christians comprise only 5.4 per cent of the total population of about 150,000 and hence the recent

controversy is totally uncalled for.

Such a small figure should really not be a reason for the national ripples it is causing.``

It may be pointed out here that the VHP claims that of a total population of 250,000 today, there are 60,000 Christians, or almost 25 per cent, in the Dangs. But these figures are not

backed by any independent studies.

Actually, the North-East is the only area where the Christian population has grown. The states of Meghalaya, Mizoram and Nagaland have a Christian majority while Arunachal Pradesh has

a Buddhist majority. The only other states in the Union where Hindus are in a minority are Punjab (where Sikhs are in a majority) and Jammu &

Kashmir (where Muslims are in a majority).

Nevertheless, despite the figures in the table above that the VHP has been highlighting, here are some more. The 1991 census for India reveals the following growth rates: country -- 23.79; Hindus -- 22.78; Christians -- 16.89;

Muslims -- 32.76.

Thus, throughout India, the growth rate of the Christian population was lower than that of Hindus. And as Christian groups never tire of pointing out, the total percentage of Christians in India has actually gone down from 2.36 to

2.24 per cent during 1981-91.

Another fact is that the provinces where the population bomb is exploding - Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan - are states where Christians have negligible presence.

And most of the growth here is of Hindus, not Christians.

It is these factors that sociologists and demographers seek to highlight to interpret the statistics ``Christians, except for those from among the tribals, are really middle-class, educated people. Hence, they tend to have small families with one or two children. This applies even to Catholics who many mistakenly believe have large families. On the other hand, Muslims are among the poor and backward class and hence have

larger families,`` says Bose, adding, ``All growth rates right now are coming down.``

It must also be noted that the population growth rate in the North-East has been much higher than the all-India average, a major reason being immigration. For instance, Nagaland`s growth rate is 56.1 per cent. Ditto for the other states in the region as well as Sikkim. ``There has been massive migration to the North-East from the other

parts of India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Burma and Bhutan. These are people of all faiths - Hindus, Christians and Muslims, and this is part of the reason for the high growth.``

Well-known sociologist Ashis Nandy believes religious denomination is often used as a political tool: ``Sometimes tribes split up and often the split group will embrace a particular faith as a part of the bargaining involved. Similarly, many Naga tribals today claim Christianity as part of the Naga national identity.``

Also, being Christian-dominated, the North-East could be a magnet for Christians in other parts of the country. ``It is very likely that many Christians from other parts of India have migrated to the North-East in search of better prospects, and many Hindus may have moved out. At least one group known to have moved in huge numbers to the North-East are the Kerala Christians,`` says Bose.

In fact, the Malayalis are one of the largest, non-native ethnic groups in the

North-East today, though exact figures are not available. (The Nepalis are the other large non-native ethnic group in the region.) And interestingly, the Christian population in Kerala, around 20 per cent, has decreased.

Nandy also believes the massive growth in terms of percentages could be a problem of classification. ``Often during periods of strife, people don`t give their correct religious denominations. In the 1980s, many peace accords were signed in the North-East and after that people would have openly stated their faith in the 1991 census. So the increase really is a question of statement,`` he says.

Not just statement but the insistence of seeing religions in the singular. ``You will never hear of riots between Shintos and Buddhists in Japan, because most people there are Shintos AND

Buddhists,`` points out Nandy. ``Similarly, in the North-East, in earlier years, people often quoted two or more faiths during the census enumeration.

Unfortunately, this practice has stopped in recent years.``

According to the Anthropological Survey of India 1994, 15 communities in the North-East were stated to be practising more than one faith. ``But most Indians elsewhere simply do not

understand this,`` says Nandy.

*To convert or not is an individual`s right by Saisuresh Sivaswamy (Rediff on the NeT 1/12/99)

There`s an old saying in Tamil, that translates loosely as: even brothers are not

as effective as a round of thrashing.

The Bharatiya Janata Party, for long identified as a north Indian party with pro-Hindi leanings, has made some gains in the south in the recent past, and possibly its exposure to Dravidian culture has led it to imbibe this particular idiom well.

Its brutal tactic in dealing with the Christian community, with brute force right up

front, has helped it in one respect, in a way its earlier, comparatively pacifist demands could not: that is to bring the whole issue of religious

conversions to the center stage of Indian politics. With the national agenda for governance imposing on the BJP government at the Center a code of do`s and don`ts, which has clearly miffed

the traditional vote bank of the Sangh Parivar, pressure was on the saffron brigade to demonstrate clearly that it had not bid goodbye to its core agenda.

This reassurance was essential, since even the die-hard Sanghi does not expect the alliance government to complete its term. Actually, with Prime Minister A B Vajpayee taking on the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the party organization and emerging victor at the recent Bangalore conclave, the die-hard Sanghi, who has been put in his place in Nagpur, will not want this government to go anywhere near completing its five-year term, since he believes that the longer Vajpayee and Co continue in office, the more difficult it will be for the RSS to ensure a BJP

victory in the next election.

So, he needed to send a clear message to the rank and file, that the NAG notwithstanding, the organization was mindful of its core agenda, and that there has been no abandonment of the same. This is where the Christian tribals in the countryside came in as cannon-fodder. Conversions, however few, always have the potential to inflame

passions, and it is probably true that relations between tribals and neo-converts in hamlets to Christianity may have soured. What the RSS`s agents have done is to take up the same and blow it up as a national issue, which it clearly

is not.

Even the prime minister, ever a stickler for discipline otherwise, has been unable to counter this onslaught. He knows that the right thing to do would be to send the Keshubhai Patel in

Gujarat packing, and not have a party bigwig come on television and waffle about not one person being killed, just some makeshift churches were

destroyed, but that would have ensured a head-on collision with the gerontocrats in Nagpur, something he is not keen on at the moment, at least not so soon after he has pushed them to the

wall over the issue of the government`s primacy over the party.

What this has resulted in, is that the issue of conversions, on which the national agenda for governance is ominously silent, has been raised, and is being debated, even if the main Opposition party, the Congress, is not all that keen on doing so, for reasons of its own.

The BJP`s strange bedfellows, ever willing to swear by the NAG otherwise, have also been caught in two minds over this issue, with even Chandrababu Naidu, who has always maintained that

his support to the government is issue-based, saying that conversions should be discussed, so presumably in his eyes this is a valid issue.

Which is all fine. Conversions are not a modern phenomenon, they have been around since the day of Gautama Buddha, if not earlier, and I daresay they will be around well into the next

millennium as well, so the government needs to lay it on the table what its intentions are on this issue. Does it want a constitutional ban on conversions, is the first point that the government needs to clarify, and if yes, how it intends going about converting this into

legislation, given that even comparatively innocuous legislations tabled by the BJP have floundered on the rocks of its parliamentary inadequacy.

A constitutional ban on conversions sounds fine, but where does it fit in, especially since the Constitution of India is categorical about the right to religious freedom? Inherent in this right, is the individual`s right to choose his faith, so does this government believe that this is a suspendable right?

I believe that the issue of conversions cannot be discussed logically, rationally and sensibly so long as it is the BJP government that is initiating the dialogue, Vajpayee or no Vajpayee. For, this party, and its parent organization, have succeeded in creating the impression among a large number of Hindus that

their numbers are under threat because of religious conversions. Thus, 50 years after Independence, even with Hindus numbering more than 80 per cent of the population, the impression is growing that the community is dwindling. In fact, this must be the only community which, despite such large numbers, believes that its days are

numbered. Talk of paranoid millions!

To revert to the issue of conversions, the debate, such as it is, needs to consider not only who is converting to which religion, but also why. Since the Sangh Parivar has grown phenomenally

in the countryside in the last decade, it must have found out the reasons why tribals are becoming Christians. I use the phrase `becoming Christians` and not `converting`, since the communities that are in the pale of civilizations, do not conform to what you and I consider Hinduism. For the Sangh Parivar, it becomes convenient to brand them as Hindus, since the whole issue is about numbers, votes, but ask the tribals if they consider themselves to be Hindus, and the answer should be illuminating.

I come from an urban centre, from an upper caste background, and I know the realities of caste, the extent of its hold, and how it skews perceptions. I have seen families treat human beings as chattel, and worse, only because they come from a lower stratum. Attitudes have not changed much, despite progress, despite urbanization. If anything, the estrangement that results from social advancement, push in the

roots of orthodoxy deeper, rather like how the NRI is more gung-ho about India than the poor desi who has to put up with the national drudgery.

So, even conceding the Sangh Parivar`s basic premise that the native population, including the tribals and other dispossessed, of this land was, is Hindu, the key question still remains unanswered: why are the numbers leaving the Hindu fold? The answer is not difficult to divine: it is that the Hindu superstructure is highly discriminatory, terribly iniquitous on the underdog, and has become fossilized into customs and rituals. The core of the faith may be

splendid, but the ugly exterior, which is all the underprivileged get to see, does nothing for them. The imagery is rather like the rath of Lord Jagannath. The chariot with the idol on top may be

glorious, but what if those pulling it have decided that there is no glory for them in throwing themselves under the giant wheels so that the gods may continue their perambulations?

Since the Sangh Parivar claims that it is a Hindu revivalist organization, that it stands for defending the Hindu faith, let me offer a piece of advice, as a Hindu Indian. I too believe that the faith is under enormous threat today, but unlike

the Sanghis, I don`t believe that my faith is being challenged by Semitic or other faiths. Hinduism`s biggest danger today is from its practitioners, its refusal to adapt to a changing

environment, its steadfastness in believing

that rituals and superstitions constitute the central message of the faith, its reluctance to accept that the caste system is iniquitous in the extreme, that it condemns millions to a fate worse than anything imaginable for no other reason than that they were not born as forward castes.

Even Gandhiji, with his affection for the Harijan, could not cleanse the Hindu psyche of the evil of caste, but then he did not have the overt dedication to the Hindu cause that the Sangh Parivar does. Let these self-styled defenders of

the faith usher in a genuine renaissance and not focus on breaking masjids and chapels, and they will find that there is no need to ban conversions. Nobody will want to convert from a faith that treats them as equal human beings,

regardless of caste, community, creed or color. If the Parivar is unable to do this, its motives in hyping Hindu causes will always remain suspect.

Famous Last Words or a Messiah in Khakis? Shanker #87

No, I tried but cannot seem to come up with an explanation. The way you have stated the situation, it would seem that given your premises, India just has the credibility whereas the Pakistanis and Pakistan lack it, or else, you know the answer but wish to see how miserably the rest of us, plebians and pedestrians, fail. Well, I have failed. Now out with the explanation, you tease!

May an Arab`s camel give you milk, and other good wishes to you.

Sincerely.

Different Eagles, Same Genus Re: Moby #137

Sexna is hatred incarnate. It is the face of hatred and the burning fire of humiliation for centuries. Ignore this creature.

If nobody responds to this creature, `it` will stop spewing all this poison. Don`t give `it` the opportunity to ``respond``. I noticed that Yahmla Jat gave `it` the boot and left; this creature was quiet for days.

This face of hatred is so full of venom that `it` forgets which post `it` is responding to, 137 or 132!!