Muslims in America Tahmed sahib,

(By "stated goals" I was referring to goals I had stated )

It would have been fine had you ordered the invasion of Iraq, sir!

(In fact, musharraf is a proven liar anyway)

Mr. Sanghvi, who can hardly be accused of being anti-West, is stating almost the same thing about Mush's ally- Bush.

Regards

Muslims in America Tahmed sahib,

Hindoos are about as pro-US as you wud get and no can accuse Hindoos of being pro-Muslims but this is what Indian opinion about Iraq invasion was. I will reproduce an article written by Vir Sanghvi (who is neither commie nor a jihadi) in HT.

{{{Vox Populi and the Iraq Invasion - Counterpoint by Vir Sanghvi: A few months before America and Britain invaded Iraq, my colleague Aditya Sinha had an idea. In those days, Aditya was editor of the Sunday Hindustan Times — he has since moved up in the world and become Editor-in-chief of the New Indian Express — and he was keen to commission an opinion poll for the paper.

At that stage, nobody had polled the Indian people about our attitude to the US invasion of Iraq, and many journos — hard as this is to believe now — thought that there might be public support for military action.

The reasons seemed self-evident then. Memories of 9/11 were still fresh. The invasion of Afghanistan had been popular. There was a pro-American mood in India. The first Gulf War had evoked no sympathy for Saddam Hussein among most Indians. The NDA was in power and Hindutva sentiment was at a height. Which Hindu, many know-alls argued, would support a Muslim military dictator against America? Even the central government was humming and hawing about criticising the planned invasion and one view was that India might even send troops (under a UN mandate) to fight in Iraq. (Which we nearly did.)

When the results of Aditya’s poll came in, they revealed how wrong journos (and those in government) had been about the public mood. I forget the exact figures now but an overwhelming majority of Indians were bitterly opposed to any invasion of Iraq.

We talked about the results of the poll in our office and our broad conclusion was that Indians were more sensible than journos sometimes believed. It was not a Hindu-Muslim thing or a pro or anti America response. The US had simply failed to convince the world of the need for an invasion. Afghanistan was different — that operation had been directly linked to 9/11. So was the first Gulf War — it had been fought to liberate Kuwait.

But, this time around, the only reasons that Washington could offer were that a) Saddam was a military dictator and b) that he probably possessed weapons of mass destruction. Neither reason was enough to justify an invasion. America was friends with nasty dictators all over the world (let’s start with the Saudi royal family) and even if Saddam did possess chemical or biological weapons, so did many others. As I argued at the time: given this reasoning, the US should have invaded Pakistan where a nasty military dictator was not only in power but had also publicly admitted possessing nuclear weapons. (Plus his government had links with terrorists who had murdered many more people than Al Qaeda.)

As the months went on and the invasion seemed imminent, many distinguished Indian journos (with foreign affairs backgrounds that I lack), tried to persuade us that we should align with Washington and that the invasion made sense. Those of us who said it was about oil or establishing US power in the region were being intellectually lazy; we were told there were compelling reasons for taking out Saddam.

I thought back last week to Aditya’s poll and to the common sense of the Indian people. When Parliament passed a resolution opposing the invasion, many foreign policy experts sneered at our “Cold War mentality” and warned that there was no profit in antagonising the US. The central government made informal promises of support to Washington and we came perilously close to sending troops but for the good sense of AB Vajpayee who finally told his colleagues that the Indian people would never stand for it, and scuppered the proposal when it was already at a fairly advanced stage.

But the foreign policy experts and the well-connected journos were all wrong. It was the people of India who had the right instincts.

Just look at the devastation the war in Iraq has caused.

Not one person has emerged from that conflict with any credit. First of all, the weapons of mass destruction on which the war was predicated were never found. In his new book, George Tenet, who was director of CIA at the time, says that his agency had actually warned the White House that there was no authentic intelligence about such weapons. But George W Bush and Dick Cheney went ahead and lied to the
world anyway.

Secondly, the US administration was not just venal, it was stupid. There were no plans for administering Iraq after the conquest. Paul Bremmer, Bush’s viceroy, took the disastrous step of disbanding the police force and the army and plunged a whole country into lawlessness, chaos and anarchy. Even now, something like 50 people die every day on the streets of Iraq because of terrorist attacks.

Thirdly, none of the men who talked so convincingly about the need to invade Iraq now stands by those claims about Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction or his links to terrorists. Tony Blair steps down in a few months, his reputation in tatters only because of his misjudgments about Iraq. Nearly every member of his cabinet now admits that the decision to invade was wrong.

Donald Rumsfeld, cheer leader for the invasion, has been sacked. Paul Wolfowitz, the neo-con ideologue who provided the rationale that the White House needed for the invasion, has been kicked out of his next job, as head of the World Bank, for manipulating the system to give his mistress a raise.

Dick Cheney, who told most of the lies about weapons of mass destruction, is a reviled figure whose political career will end the moment he steps down as Vice President. George W Bush is struggling to regain the initiative as polls show that Americans, usually the most patriotic people in the world, especially when their country is at war, are turning against him.

Fourthly, far from spreading democracy and making the world a safer place, the invasion has actually put us all at risk. We saw what form democracy took in Iraq when a lynch mob hanged Saddam, under American sponsorship. And Washington is terrified that democracy might actually lead to the election of Shia extremists now so even those plans are on hold.

All over the world, otherwise peaceful Muslims who had been persuaded that the invasion of Afghanistan was a necessity warranted by the events of 9/11, now believe that the West is waging a war against Islam. What other justification, they ask, could there be for the invasion of Iraq?

Between them, George W Bush and Tony Blair have created millions of more Islamic extremists than Osama bin Laden could ever have managed on his own. That radicalisation makes young Muslims more susceptible to the preaching of militants and fanatics. Thus, terror will actually increase in the long run, and it is you and me who will pay the price for the stupidity of Bush and Blair.

So, how could Washington and London have got it so wrong? How could George W Bush have taken a historic opportunity — with American power at its height, American economic might all-pervasive and American popular culture the new idiom for the whole world — and destroyed it so completely? At no time in its history has America been so hated all over the world.

I’ve never been able to find an answer to those questions. Nor have I worked out how and why so many Indians in high places and in positions of influence believed that the invasion was worth supporting — or that it would succeed, even if it was unjustified.

It does, however, confirm my overwhelming faith in the good sense of the Indian people. At a time when the journos, the experts and the best and the brightest got it so wrong, the man on the street got it completely right. }}}

Regards

Muslims in America Tahmed sahib,

What matters is the logic of an action in light of stated goals.

Well, Mushy had a stated goal when he imposed Emergency, didn't he?

Seriously, if you believed that USA's reasons for invading Iraq was it stated goals i.e. to provide security to its own population and to liberate the people from a dictator, well I will leave it at that.

Regards

Muslims in America PM,

Re: 164

Thanks for taking interest. The only reason I wanted to avoid discussing here was 'cos it may be tangential to the Board. But if you guys are interested I will do so right here.

Regards

Muslims in America Masadi sahib,

he knew Pakistan as a weaker nation would always be dependent on the British for defense

No, this is not quite correct. MAJ (pbuh) had envisaged India and Pak to be friendly countries post demerger. And that indeed wud have been the case had Kashmir not intervened (a fiasco for which incidentally he too is culpable) If you would recall he even did not dispose off his Bombay property and intended to spend his last days in Bombay, which hardly suggests that he expected to see India as a hostile enemy from which Brit sceurity cover would be required.

Bit pressed for time but we can discuss #159 later possibly over email.

Regards

Muslims in America Masadi sahib,

OK I will leave aside ZAB for the moment.

But coming back to MAJ (pbuh), I must tell you what I keep telling my Hindoo compatriots. That it was not he who began the politics of mobilisation on communal lines. He raised the TNT banner becuase he felt that Muslims SECULAR, WORLDLY interests would be hurt in INC's vision of undivided India ( and considering how things have panned out in India he can only be considered right in hindsight).

I will let matters rest at that.

Regards

Muslims in America Masadi sahib,

(ZAB had nothing to do with)

On the contrary, sir, he had. By pandering to the mullah's whims on the Q-community imposing prohibition and such stuff. In time soft Islamism gave way to hard Islamism just as soft Hindutva of MKG, Indira and Rajiv gave way to hard Hindutva.

(but not before MAJ had laid the foundations of it )

Both you and Hindoos on chowk accuse MAJ (pbuh) of encouraging just the same forces which actually opposed him all his life including calling him Kaffir-e-Azam. Please refer to the Lahore Resolution, 1940 and his 8/11 speech.

It is true his creation has taken the path towards Islamic fundoosim but has done so by neglecting his teachings. How is he responsible?

Regards

Muslims in America Tahmed sahib,

the US population was attacked by Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

So what was the motive for invasion of Iraq?

WMD was spurious wasn't it, an official publicly admited that the report was "sexed-up".

Saddam alone was not the issue- tyrants are dime a dozen in the Third World.

That leaves us with one motive- Oil.

And at the end of the day, oil has only become dearer and the AQ has got a (potential) safe haven in a country where it had not much of a presence.

And so it was a strategic mistake from day 1.

But I believe you supported this invasion, didn't you?

Regards

Muslims in America Tahmed sahib,

Re; 132/Others

So basically there was nothing inherently wrong in the American invasion of Iraq, it was basically a noble and disinterested project. But went wrong because of tactical mistakes made by Bush's incompetent team. Is that what you are arguing?

Regards

Anti-Americanism in Pakistan and the Taliban Menace Zee sahib,

Sorry, I missed that.

Regards

Anti-Americanism in Pakistan and the Taliban Menace Looks like Tahir mian will break Dawa behens record of max no. of consecutive posts only these posts would be on different threads!!!

Regards

The Lame Duck Government Posting this on behalf of Masadi sahib:

BTW, the Americans painted Musharraf's custom Hummer red because it was "blood money" for sucking the blood of this nation on their behalf. Something tells me that his driving days, like those of the other blood-sucking dictators, will soon be over...

I was banned on June 30, It is the end of July 2 now and they still havent unblocked me, can you write this on chowk so that they open up my account please



Regards

PS: Zee sahib, Regards is my addition

Muslims in America Beej bhaiyya,

If YLH asks me to post on his behalf I shall gladly do so. I consider it a privilege that thinking people like YLH and Masadi sahib choose to use me as a courier.

Regards

Anti-Americanism in Pakistan and the Taliban Menace Masadi sahib wishes to inform chowkies that the chowkstaff has banned him for 48 hours after saying it was for 24, and he would have busted his (PHs) BS were he unblocked.

Posting on his behalf:

attack by an external enemy always unites divergent groups within a society while internal fighting especially against those who are seen as oppressors (the Pakistan Army) will never evoke such condemnation. If an African American (considered outsiders in the US) were to rape a white woman, the social reaction is much different to when a white man rapes the same woman. This fool, PH is a social illiterate yet he tries to pontificate on social issues. If America were to vanish into thin air, the Taliban and the Jihadists will after a correction period definitely fizzle out, like I said, giving a bunch of thugs the "major enemy status" to divert attention from actual struggles against the empire is what has given them the nourishment they need to become what they are becomming. Read HPs post with care and know that this is not the same Pakistan where Army thugs, Religious thugs and liberal wannabes like PH can dupe the masses, the people are seeing the truth and the truth tells them that it is all about power and in this struggle for power they have been left out all along by the establishment and those that struggled against it to push the people in like ZAB were butchered will the butcheres drive Red csstom designed Hummers, wearing shades flanked by commandoes and what not, whose price if redeemed can feed a small city three square meals for a week in a country where 84% live in misrable conditions on less than $2 a day.....that fools day of redemption is coming, and I hope this fool PH hangs with him....

Regards

Muslims in America Posting this on behalf of Masadi sahib

"Did somebody mention my name? It must be my spider sense! Since Chowk staff banned me for 24 hours and has kept me blocked after 48, I wont be able to respond to the BS about me going on, on this thread. However, I'd like to convey that this article is first rate BS. The Muslims in the US just like African Americans with a very long history, segregate and congregate together because they discover first hand through their intitial experience that the wider society rejects them, and does not consider they equal, it distorts the image they created of themselves while in their home societies to one that is of a third rate person. It is not the Pakistani that isolates himself, he unfortunately worships the ground the white man walks upon and would love to be part of his circle. This rejection and alienation is the result of the wider social structure designed to show all non whites/non chiristians that they are alien, which is translated into bureaucratic fact by describing some as resident aliens and others as illegal aliens. Throwing out a cheap stat like akcheema did without checking the socio economic status of those students of indian origin does not prove anything. Now tahmed and anil have problems with me because I bust their objects of worship, the white man and his capitalistic society, so instead of countering my arguments which they cannot approach, they use ad hominem against me.



The US elite commandeer the pinnacles of global institutions and man the biggest guns to ensure the probability that what they desire happens to the detriment of their opponents, their efforts to that end are quite visible except to their diehard worshippers like tahmed. Someone who makes those plain for all to see and will not be "impartial" to barbarism and will call it evil does not make me either a fanatic or an Islamic fanatic. The fanatics are those that side with the fanatical, racist, quite illiterate Republican Party of the USA, they are those that push the US style of capitalism that will not refrain from destroying the earth for their profits, they are those that due to ego (like YLH and MAJ) will sell the nation to the colonials and feudals, they are the REAL fanatics....."

Regards

PS: The Regards is my own addition. I do not subscribe to the personal assault made on MAJ (pbuh) and Mr. YLH. I am just repeating Masadi sahib verbatin.

The Lame Duck Government Posting this on the behalf of Masadi sahib, who has yet again been banned by chowk.

Army apologist, illiterate Leadenwinter writes "But Pakistan might well be the root of all stupidity.."

It is not Pakistan that is stupid fool, the stupidity is centered in the Pakistan Army and due to its capture of the state and economy it radiates around the whole country, and the radiators of that stupidity are fools like you. BTW how did your meeting with Musharraf go? Did he look cool driving that (American bribe) red Hummerand shades? Newly released from his house arrest after the lawyers didn't take the bait, he must have felt good breathing that fresh Islamabad air...

Regards