Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity
On What Gandhi wanted
The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure. We saw
Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review
of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He
was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should
not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
On What Gandhi wanted (3)
CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES
The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that
was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for which we were
perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable
quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we
were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native
prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing
of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of
our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any
unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were
given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the
horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and
partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree
removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves
in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
On What Gandhi wanted (2)
INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS
There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that we
were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but
not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with
the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too
much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive
resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was
intended to emasculate the Indians.
It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a
welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their
conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a
separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we
would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to
hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
On What Gandhi wanted (1)
I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian
prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the
place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them
were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These
prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the
chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate
room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the
same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a
secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may
entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that
there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life.
Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for
doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
On What Gandhi wanted (9)
Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very
difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and
most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians,
whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
On What Gandhi wanted (8)
The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to
the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant
that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and
pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets
Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
On What Gandhi wanted (7)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
On What Gandhi wanted (6)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
On What Gandhi wanted (5)
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal
races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
On What Gandhi wanted (14)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
On What Gandhi wanted (13)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg
359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
On What Gandhi wanted (12)
What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political
power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South
Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those
that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold
landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements
Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330
On What Gandhi wanted (11)
Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...
Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"
...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the
British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there
is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the
purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG
Vol. 4, pg 89
On What Gandhi wanted (10)
More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for
dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of
course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from
the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess
I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...
'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed
bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi
(Young India January 6th 1927)
A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it
is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is
working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess
unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste
can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste.
Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a
representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing
persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste.
With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to
raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in
Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature.
The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace
while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of
answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food
must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love
because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so
orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they
drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system
cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or
intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment.
Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his
enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and
intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means
that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the
soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To
change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot
call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is
to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been
given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility
of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently
those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of
advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all
those who are out to destroy the caste system.
Posted by
majumdar
Oct 2, 2008 10:21 pm
For those who seek to implement Gandhian ideals, my lawyer has dug out some interesting facts, old time chowkies may have already read this:On What Gandhi wanted
The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure. We saw
Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review
of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He
was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should
not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
On What Gandhi wanted (3)
CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES
The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that
was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for which we were
perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable
quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we
were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native
prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing
of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of
our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any
unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were
given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the
horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and
partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree
removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves
in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
On What Gandhi wanted (2)
INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS
There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that we
were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but
not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with
the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too
much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive
resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was
intended to emasculate the Indians.
It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a
welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their
conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a
separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we
would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to
hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
On What Gandhi wanted (1)
I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian
prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the
place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them
were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These
prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the
chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate
room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the
same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a
secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may
entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that
there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life.
Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for
doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
On What Gandhi wanted (9)
Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very
difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and
most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians,
whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
On What Gandhi wanted (8)
The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to
the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant
that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and
pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets
Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
On What Gandhi wanted (7)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
On What Gandhi wanted (6)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
On What Gandhi wanted (5)
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal
races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
On What Gandhi wanted (14)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
On What Gandhi wanted (13)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg
359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
On What Gandhi wanted (12)
What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political
power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South
Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those
that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold
landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements
Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330
On What Gandhi wanted (11)
Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...
Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"
...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the
British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there
is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the
purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG
Vol. 4, pg 89
On What Gandhi wanted (10)
More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for
dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of
course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from
the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess
I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...
'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed
bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi
(Young India January 6th 1927)
A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it
is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is
working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess
unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste
can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste.
Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a
representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing
persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste.
With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to
raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in
Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature.
The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace
while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of
answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food
must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love
because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so
orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they
drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system
cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or
intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment.
Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his
enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and
intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means
that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the
soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To
change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot
call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is
to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been
given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility
of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently
those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of
advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all
those who are out to destroy the caste system.
A Weak Pakistan is a Threat to Neighbours
USA withdrew from the jihad in 1988 after the Russians were beaten. After 1988, jihad was a Pakistani phenomenon and the Taliban were created in 1995 by a civilian administration (BB's 2nd govt) without any reference to USA or any third party. So to wash Pakistani hands off jihad is unfair.
It is quite correct on your part to clubbing the VHP-BD with Taliban. If they are not checked we will have a Hindoo Taliban on our hands. Their modus operandi may not be the same, but the end result will be similar.
Personally I do not see Pakistan getting any weaker unless there is an outright invasion of Pakistan by US armies.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Oct 2, 2008 10:15 pm
Ijaz sahib,USA withdrew from the jihad in 1988 after the Russians were beaten. After 1988, jihad was a Pakistani phenomenon and the Taliban were created in 1995 by a civilian administration (BB's 2nd govt) without any reference to USA or any third party. So to wash Pakistani hands off jihad is unfair.
It is quite correct on your part to clubbing the VHP-BD with Taliban. If they are not checked we will have a Hindoo Taliban on our hands. Their modus operandi may not be the same, but the end result will be similar.
Personally I do not see Pakistan getting any weaker unless there is an outright invasion of Pakistan by US armies.
Regards
Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity
Ram Rajya= Rule of God= Hukumar-e-Ilahi
Satyagraha= Struggle for Truth= Jihad
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Oct 2, 2008 09:15 pm
Will return to the board in greater details later. Suffice it to say that Gandhi's ideals are alive and kicking in FATA at least (also to lesser and more sporadic extents in Gujarat, Kandhmal etc.) For instance,Ram Rajya= Rule of God= Hukumar-e-Ilahi
Satyagraha= Struggle for Truth= Jihad
Regards
Historian Amaresh Misra on South Asia
Re: 54
Sadly very little is known about the IVC.
1. We do not know ethnically who these people were and where they went. Were they exterminated? Did their descendants migrate to Southern and Eastern India? Or are their descendants today's Punjoos, Sindhis, Baluch and Brahui?
2. Who were their Gods? They certainly were fertility gods like most of their contemporary Gods. But were the Gods they worshipped the forerunners of today's Shiva and Parvati? Or were they completely unrelated to our Shiva and Parvati?
Sadly, till the above questions are answered, we will not be able to answer the question are they yours, ours, us both or belong to none of us, actually.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Oct 1, 2008 01:34 am
HP sain,Re: 54
Sadly very little is known about the IVC.
1. We do not know ethnically who these people were and where they went. Were they exterminated? Did their descendants migrate to Southern and Eastern India? Or are their descendants today's Punjoos, Sindhis, Baluch and Brahui?
2. Who were their Gods? They certainly were fertility gods like most of their contemporary Gods. But were the Gods they worshipped the forerunners of today's Shiva and Parvati? Or were they completely unrelated to our Shiva and Parvati?
Sadly, till the above questions are answered, we will not be able to answer the question are they yours, ours, us both or belong to none of us, actually.
Regards
Historian Amaresh Misra on South Asia
NEFP
Why are you referring to NWFP as NEFP, are you implying that Pukhtoonkhwa is the NE province of A'stan rather than NW province of Pakistan? Or is it just a typo?
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 30, 2008 03:18 am
Kaal bhai,NEFP
Why are you referring to NWFP as NEFP, are you implying that Pukhtoonkhwa is the NE province of A'stan rather than NW province of Pakistan? Or is it just a typo?
Regards
Coming to America
To be fair to Masadi sahib, he has been very critical of all of Pakistan's leaders who have supported pro-US policies including its Founder MAJ (pbuh) himself. In fact he has been of the view that the creation of Pakistan itself was a imperialist conspiracy (he is wrong on that but that is a different matter). In his opinion, only ZAB opted for an independent line and was murdered for that.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 29, 2008 10:15 pm
Ana,To be fair to Masadi sahib, he has been very critical of all of Pakistan's leaders who have supported pro-US policies including its Founder MAJ (pbuh) himself. In fact he has been of the view that the creation of Pakistan itself was a imperialist conspiracy (he is wrong on that but that is a different matter). In his opinion, only ZAB opted for an independent line and was murdered for that.
Regards
Coming to America
USA's direct and indirect influence over Pakistan would have remained irrespective of whether AAZ tried to charm Sarah Palin or not. The question is whether AAZ's behaviour with the lady undermines Pak's interest or not and whether such behaviour shows Pakistan in a bad light. I am not convinced that the answer to either is Yes.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 29, 2008 09:34 pm
Masadi sahib,USA's direct and indirect influence over Pakistan would have remained irrespective of whether AAZ tried to charm Sarah Palin or not. The question is whether AAZ's behaviour with the lady undermines Pak's interest or not and whether such behaviour shows Pakistan in a bad light. I am not convinced that the answer to either is Yes.
Regards
Coming to America
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 29, 2008 09:04 pm
I would love to see YRG and Sarah Palin march together.Regards
Pakistani-Americans or American-Pakistanis?
We 160 million Pakistanis are waiting anxiously when US will break in 50 pieces...
Maybe one of these Pak Am doctors will emerge as the American Jinnah (pbuh).
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 29, 2008 01:18 am
Dawa behen,We 160 million Pakistanis are waiting anxiously when US will break in 50 pieces...
Maybe one of these Pak Am doctors will emerge as the American Jinnah (pbuh).
Regards
The Sangh Octopussy
muslims.....they, rarely, if ever change their faith.....
Kaal bhai has often marvelled about this.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 29, 2008 12:02 am
FM Romair,muslims.....they, rarely, if ever change their faith.....
Kaal bhai has often marvelled about this.
Regards
Zalim Online
Good piece. But there's no reason to charge the Talibs/Islamists with crimes that they have not commited. There is a reason to believe that BB's assassination was not their handiwork.
Toofan Pai,
Marriott was certainly the handiwork of the Talibs (possibly the type that Zee sahib wud describe as bad Talibs) but their facilitators may well have been agency people.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 28, 2008 11:55 pm
Aqil sahib,Good piece. But there's no reason to charge the Talibs/Islamists with crimes that they have not commited. There is a reason to believe that BB's assassination was not their handiwork.
Toofan Pai,
Marriott was certainly the handiwork of the Talibs (possibly the type that Zee sahib wud describe as bad Talibs) but their facilitators may well have been agency people.
Regards
Pakistani-Americans or American-Pakistanis?
Any of these scientists in line for a Nobel?
Waiting for your remaining 70 posts.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 28, 2008 11:16 pm
Dawa behen,Any of these scientists in line for a Nobel?
Waiting for your remaining 70 posts.
Regards
The Sangh Octopussy
Actually Jesus's message of love and peace is perhaps even more relevant in places like Bajaur and Waziristan. All the missionaries in places like Kandhmal shud be encouraged to open a branch there.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 28, 2008 11:05 pm
Cheema sahib, Cool,Actually Jesus's message of love and peace is perhaps even more relevant in places like Bajaur and Waziristan. All the missionaries in places like Kandhmal shud be encouraged to open a branch there.
Regards
Pakistani-Americans or American-Pakistanis?
They are in US becuase they get good salaries and opportunities in USA, it is a simple economic need.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 28, 2008 11:01 pm
Dawa behen,They are in US becuase they get good salaries and opportunities in USA, it is a simple economic need.
Regards
We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us!
#305
Correct. But I dont know whether India has got even the limited pondage structures to hold water back for a few days (at least on the Chenab). But I may be wrong on this.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 26, 2008 01:29 am
Arjun mian,#305
Correct. But I dont know whether India has got even the limited pondage structures to hold water back for a few days (at least on the Chenab). But I may be wrong on this.
Regards
We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us!
Personally I am not convinced that India has blocked water on the River Chenab or Jhelum for the simple reason that we dont have dams large enuff to do so. (I would of course be willing to be corrected on this). More likely it is the result of poor rainfall or snowfall or some such factor.
Regards
Posted by
majumdar
Sep 26, 2008 12:44 am
Arjun mian,Personally I am not convinced that India has blocked water on the River Chenab or Jhelum for the simple reason that we dont have dams large enuff to do so. (I would of course be willing to be corrected on this). More likely it is the result of poor rainfall or snowfall or some such factor.
Regards
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