Historian Amaresh Misra on South Asia HP sain,

Aryans brought Hinduism with them and they were invaders too.

???????

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity YLH/Sadna/Sanatani/Muthu et al,

Will return later. But here is my summing up, MKG tried to be the leader of all of India, Hindoos and Muslims alike but ended up shooting everyone in the foot.

He made Jihadi fundamentalism fashionable and mainstream.

He blinded Hindoos to the reality of TNT and never allowed the decisive break in 1947 (the contours of which I have discussed with Sadna on several UP threads lately) which would have set both India and Pakistan free. He tied INC to a policy of dhimmitude which is faithfully followed till date.

As a Hindoo, I can possibly overlook the former, but never forgive the latter.

Regards

MQM - History and Origins NHK,

Re: 6

While factually true, that is sure to light some fire under some folks tails here.

Regards

MQM - History and Origins NHK,

Re: 6

While factually true, that is sure to light some fire under some folks tails here.

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity AK sb,

Few other similarities you may ponder on.

When a Punjabi author wrote a blasphemous article on the Prophet, he was murdered by some Muslim fanatic. Now while I dont approve of blasphemy this is no way of settlin matter in a civilised country. But if I am not mistaken MKG went out of the way to justify the act (correct me if I am wrong), this is the same mindset which has prompted today's Blasphemy Laws.

When Moplahs went on a rampage murdering, raping, converting, plundering and abducting Hindoos, MKG rather tamely offered an explanation that the Moplahs were acting in a manner which they thought behoved their faith. This is the same argument which some Talib apologists adopt.

In a curious irony Pakistan in its Objective Resolution unwittingly adopted MKG's philosophy "That those who want to separate religion and politics know nothing about either". Wherein began the slide towards a sectarian state. While the Constt of India without mentioning the secular word effectively separated the state and church, much as MAJ (pbuh) in his 8/11 showed the pathway of separating faith and citizenship without mentioning the s-word.

Now you decide who is the ideological grand dady of Taliban in the sub-continent.

Regards

Reforming Religious Fundamentalists This is to bring to your notice that Masadi sahib has again been banned by chowk for what he considers unjustifed reason, he wishes to express his protest here.

Dr sohail has got me banned for making a quite benign post on there. He is also responsible for censoring my articles. My comments to HP were much harsher but they were not cut or censored but as soon as I say something to Dr.sohail the (deleted) shrink, i get banned! Please let friends know on that thread

Masadi

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity Adam Khan sb,

whats your excuse?

Truth.

Fundoos of both Hindoo and Momin variety were dime a dozen in India but it was MKG who brought fundoos into the national political mainstream which till then was dominated by secular politicians like MAJ (pbuh), GK Gokhale and MLN.

Gotta go but will explain in details later. But in a short sentence, he made Islamic fundooism mainstream thru his espousal of Moplah and Khilafat and later his unilateral suspension of NCM caused a feeling of betrayal among Muslims which ultiamtely led to parting of ways.

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity Nkg moshai,

You are certainly not nobody and hence far from perfect.

Regards

Coming to America Tahmed sahib,

Zeenaji's antipathy to Obama is not because of his skin colour but becuase of his repeated threats to bomb Pakistan. Zeenaji is not a racist.

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity Harishbhai,

Even Pakistanis are advocating Gandhian ideals.

This is not a new development. Mr. Baitullah Mehsud and company have been advocating Gandhian ideals for quite some time.

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity For those who seek to implement Gandhian ideals, my lawyer has dug out some interesting facts, old time chowkies may have already read this:

On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment's leisure. We saw
Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review
of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He
was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should
not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183

On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that
was labeled 'For Coloured Debtors'. It was this experience for which we were
perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable
quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we
were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native
prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing
of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of
our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any
unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were
given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as
comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the
horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and
partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree
removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves
in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter 'N', which meant that we
were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but
not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with
the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too
much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive
resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was
intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a
welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their
conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a
separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we
would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to
hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather
dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so.
They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward
contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among
themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian
thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian
prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the
place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them
were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These
prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the
chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate
room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the
same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a
secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may
entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that
there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life.
Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for
doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi's disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very
difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and
most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians,
whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to
the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant
that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and
pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of 'coloured person'
on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British
Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is
this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government
insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no
occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal
races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long
run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to
the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to
relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class
required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible.
It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well
to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced,
that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere,
and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained
effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after
all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the
Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple
mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their
wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite
length of time. We have used the words 'gentle compulsion' in the best sense
of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises
over children

Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg
359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political
power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South
Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those
that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold
landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330

On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of "Separate and Unequal"

...The petition dwells upon "the co-mingling of the Coloured and white
races". May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the
British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there
is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the
purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG
Vol. 4, pg 89


On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi's theory of "separate and unequal"

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for
dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of
course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from
the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess
I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

'Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed
bound to organize itself as a seperate entity' : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it
is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different
castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is
working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess
unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste
can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste.
Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a
representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing
persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste.
With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to
raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for
promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is
contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in
Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature.
The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace
while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of
answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food
must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love
because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so
orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they
drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system
cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or
intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment.
Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his
enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and
intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means
that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the
soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To
change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot
call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is
to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been
given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility
of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently
those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of
advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all
those who are out to destroy the caste system.

A Weak Pakistan is a Threat to Neighbours Ijaz sahib,

USA withdrew from the jihad in 1988 after the Russians were beaten. After 1988, jihad was a Pakistani phenomenon and the Taliban were created in 1995 by a civilian administration (BB's 2nd govt) without any reference to USA or any third party. So to wash Pakistani hands off jihad is unfair.

It is quite correct on your part to clubbing the VHP-BD with Taliban. If they are not checked we will have a Hindoo Taliban on our hands. Their modus operandi may not be the same, but the end result will be similar.

Personally I do not see Pakistan getting any weaker unless there is an outright invasion of Pakistan by US armies.

Regards

Living Gandhi and King Today: Unbroken Historic Continuity Will return to the board in greater details later. Suffice it to say that Gandhi's ideals are alive and kicking in FATA at least (also to lesser and more sporadic extents in Gujarat, Kandhmal etc.) For instance,

Ram Rajya= Rule of God= Hukumar-e-Ilahi
Satyagraha= Struggle for Truth= Jihad

Regards

Historian Amaresh Misra on South Asia HP sain,

Re: 54

Sadly very little is known about the IVC.

1. We do not know ethnically who these people were and where they went. Were they exterminated? Did their descendants migrate to Southern and Eastern India? Or are their descendants today's Punjoos, Sindhis, Baluch and Brahui?

2. Who were their Gods? They certainly were fertility gods like most of their contemporary Gods. But were the Gods they worshipped the forerunners of today's Shiva and Parvati? Or were they completely unrelated to our Shiva and Parvati?

Sadly, till the above questions are answered, we will not be able to answer the question are they yours, ours, us both or belong to none of us, actually.

Regards

Historian Amaresh Misra on South Asia Kaal bhai,

NEFP

Why are you referring to NWFP as NEFP, are you implying that Pukhtoonkhwa is the NE province of A'stan rather than NW province of Pakistan? Or is it just a typo?

Regards

Coming to America Ana,

To be fair to Masadi sahib, he has been very critical of all of Pakistan's leaders who have supported pro-US policies including its Founder MAJ (pbuh) himself. In fact he has been of the view that the creation of Pakistan itself was a imperialist conspiracy (he is wrong on that but that is a different matter). In his opinion, only ZAB opted for an independent line and was murdered for that.

Regards