Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement "yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post... "

it is #456 where crazy mullah has audacity to threaten with nuclear holocaust. His Point #2 is as follows:

"2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat; strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars."

[India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan]

yani ke kashmiri khilona tumko chahiye hi chahiye varna tum udham machate hi rahoge. to phir saf saf kyun nahin kahte. kashmir dena padega eisa bolo na. kya mid-east, kya silk routes? India's economic juggernaut is unstoppable. chahe pakistan kitna bhi misbehave karle. nuksan paskitan ka hi hei.

Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement Masadi wrote:

"There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements."

The scientific methodology means all facts are subject to scrutiny. Science is not facts known at one point of time. Science is its method. Facts are its bye-products. In that method all facts are ephmeral and subject to suspicion and revision. Before a revision can be made new facts should be found. And before one embarks on a mission to find new facts a scientist should be allowed to bring into his mind a doubt about old facts or old interpretations. And he should be allowed to express his doubts without his head being chopped off. In science there are no last prophets, there no theory which not a "work in progress". There is no theory which is complete and therefore above question.

Can you convincingly argue that this is the case in case of Islam? In Islam there is conflict between religion and science because religion is presented as ready made theory which is complete in every respect and which should not be questioned.

If the Quran invites people to use it to arrive at the truth and then enjoins upon such qusi-scientists to confirm the Quran's statements only then where is the freedom to bring doubt about Quran and freedom to express it in so many words, and that "not confirming" and refutation of its statements is not allowed (in other words, Quran cannot be subject to scrutiny, it is off limits, untouchable) under the pain of threat of death, then Quran cannot be basis of science.

“A Mighty Heart” is a Mighty Sad Movie Chowk staff should invite Mariane Pearl to comment on this article or write an article of her own. Hope she is alive and well.

Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant? [#25 by Naqshbandi on June 22, 2007 2:42am PT

...IQ tests follow --in theory at least--a normal distribution with 100 in the middle...]

Gauss Bhaiyya idhar bhi aa dhamake. Koi baat nahee. Welcome.

So what is standard deviation of a standardized IQ test? If the IQ score=0 is at -3*ó then it should be at 33+1/3.

I think so disenfranchizing any people is a bad idea. But if you must use IQ test scores then using 100 as cutoff point is a bad idea. It will disenfrenchise 50% population. At +/-1*ó there are natural points on Gauss`s distribution. At these points are the pdf curve`s two Points of Inflexion. All other points are ``Man Made``. Like 95% etc are all man made. If one must use the distribution of IQ scores in a population one may use (mean -1*ó). At least that way more then 50% will be vote eligible.

But I think letting the nature biase the population by requiring every willing voter first of all to have willingness and then intelligence to understand voting process and have enough intelligence to be able to find one`s way to polling booth, is all that is required as far as disenfrenchising is concerned. The nature itself will take out from voting people who are too dumb or too unwilling.

Allama Iqbal- Is he still relevant? From article:

``While in my view this idea is inherently flawed but it is clear that a majority of Muslims around the world agree with Iqbal`s idea, what they don`t agree with is Iqbal`s liberal interpretation of Islamic law and his readiness to do away with what they consider to be the central motif of islam.``

My question: And what is that central motif?

The Hypocrisy of the Indian Leftists South Indians are worst discriminators in India. They help only their kinsmen. They discriminate against North Indians. They cheat in competitive exams. Entire South India should be handed over back to British. That is only way they can be civilized.

Pakistans Permanent Revolution Pakistan will always remain like this a millenium from now. Anyone who thinks that this or that may do the trick of improving the situation or bring ``true`` democracy or modernize in ``true`` sense etc etc is deluding himself. Fundamental to ills of Pakistan is Islam and value system that has originated from it. Sau Baat Kee Ek Baat.

What is it going to take to have a Clean Bombay? I was in Kolkata in Nov 06. I stayed near my old home (near MG Rd metro station). I visited Bhawanipore. I came by train so I saw Howrah Station. None of these places have changed form what they were in 89 when I left Kolkata. I would not say Kolkata is any cleaner than Mumbai.

Internal passport may not be possible but some kind of anti-vagrancy laws should be there. In Mumbai autorickshaws are not permitted south of Bandra. People do not see such restriction as unreasonable. I do not see why anti-vagrancy laws cannot be enacted. Such laws may be already there. May be these needs to applied strictly. Defecating in public places should be punishable by RI.

What is it going to take to have a Clean Bombay? You cannot have better Mumbai and rest of India stinking. Mumbai`s problem is exactly that. It is part of India. For less than a 1000 Rupees you can come from anywhere in India to Mumbai. India probably needs cheap railways but as long as they are cheap no metropolis can ever be clean. Bhaiyya culture of Paan chabaaoing, spitting, shitting etc is not going to go away. And Bhaiyyas cannot be wished away. Anywhere you go Bhaiyyas are there. My prescription: make Indian Railways expensive, impose city-dweller permit (call it visa or whatever), anyone using any public property (especially the roads) should be made to pay ``rent`` and heavy fine of bad public hygiene. None of these is going to happen. I laugh when people like Vilasrao talk about making Mumbai a Shanghai.

Why Have This Train At All? [#346 by zeemax on February 26, 2007 0:40am PT
#326 by einsteinwallah
Thanks for your attempt, but actually Indian Visas are specific for both entry and exit, which HAVE to be the same ... e.g. you can`t enter from Bombay and leave from Delhi. It is for the purpose of readily matching entries with exits ( though I don`t know why it should be so given realtime technology).

My question was that every single person who exited through Atari would have been cross-checked with his entry details for overstay and stuff like that. Where is that list?]

You are right. I take back my words. I got following info from indian embassy website:

Pakistani nationals are required to register themselves at the check post of entry into India. They have to hand over one copy of the visa application form, given to them by the Indian Mission abroad while granting visa, to the immigration authorities at the check post of entry, who will in turn hand over the Residential Permit to the Pak national. The Pak national has to carry the Residential Permit along with him/her, to each place of stay, for the purpose of police reporting. This Residential Permit has to be surrendered to the Immigration Authorities at the check post of exit, at the time of departure. Further, except those who are granted visa with the endorsement “Exempted from Police Reporting”, Pak nationals have to also report their arrival and intended departure, at each place of stay as permitted in the visa, within 24 hrs. at the nearest police station.

---

It seems that information taken by police stations where you report at every place of stay is supposed to be passed on to Ministry of External Affairs. Whether a system exists for capture and transmittal of information from foreigners is different question. I am sure it exists. I am sure that it is stone age ox-cart technology. Welcome to Mahaan Bhaarat. Mahaan Bhaarat is not able to tell who exited and who was going to exit but unfortunately died.

And now is Budget time. Indian Rail Minister Lallu Yadav has introduced Rail Budget and reduced fares and introduced new trains. What use new train if you cannot prevent such needless deaths?

Why Have This Train At All? [#319 by zeemax on February 25, 2007 1:01am PT
#318 by nb

No nb. The ones who survived are known right? The balance must be those dead. It is 59 Pakistanis out of 67 total. But India is not even giving the list of the total visas granted for exit via that train. There are relatives crowding the railway ministry asking about their loved ones who are still listed as missing and many of them already buried in India. It`s a mess.]

If you read following story at BBC news site it is clear that Sixty-year-old Kamruddin boarded an unreserved car of Samjhauta Express. Indian Railways issues unreserved tickets by which is meant that you just pay fare but you are not assured of a seat. If you buy a reserved ticket you pay fare and reservation charge. The way it works is that with reserved ticket you may have a ``confirmed`` seat. Or you may be in ``Waiting List``.

If you do not have ``confirmed`` reserved ticket or you have a ``fare only`` (unreserved) ticket then you have option of getting a seat in ``reserved`` cars if there is last minute cancellation. Basically you approach a conductor who wear distinctive black blazer jacket and carry IR badge pinned on jacket. These people carry latest computer printout showing latest situation about reservation. If there are no cancellations then also you can approach them in hope that somebody will miss the train and then that person`s unoccupied seat will be up for grabs and you may get it. It seems that Mr. Kamruddin did not get a seat or did not try to get. So he boarded an unreserved car. There may be zero or more unreserved cars in any Indian Railway train.

As for what you are calling ``visas granted for exit`` my guess is that there is no such thing as ``visas granted for exit``. My guess is visas are granted for entry. But Indian Government might be recording a person`s details somewhere when a Pakistani citizen leaves the country. My guess is that they record details when conductor checks the ticket or at Atari station just before crossing border. It should be responsibility of Indian Railways to make sure that travelers who travel by a train which is known to cross border that either they are going to a destination before border or they are carrying proper travel document. In my opinion they should insist on a Photo ID and Proof of Address for all passengers on such trains.

India blast victims` security questions


India blast victims` security questions
By Soutik Biswas
BBC News, Panipat



Kamruddin says he passed out after the blasts
Sixty-year-old Kamruddin, a milkman from Multan in Pakistan, lies wheezing in the only bed in a curious ``VIP emergency room`` in the chaotic government hospital in Panipat, India.

He does not remember any security person checking him when he boarded the crowded unreserved carriage of the Samjhauta (Friendship) Express at Old Delhi railway station on Sunday night.

***

Why Have This Train At All? [#314] by myself

All people travelling to border districts should be required to carry PAID.

should read

All people travelling by government operated transport to border districts should be required to carry PAID.

Also probably I should change the acronym to PIDA standing for Photo-ID-cum-Address

Why Have This Train At All? [#301 by tolkinin on February 24, 2007 3:21pm PT
#298 Mr.Einstein are you r so nive to think that iNdia can implement computerised tracking of passengers adresses etc...In a country where 1/3 of passengers travel without any ticket including even platform ticket.....there is not will or intention of impementing any rule except when the enforcer has interst of lining his poc ket for which this rule would be god send......]

I am not asking for mandatory and universal restriction requiring that passengers carry Photo-cum-Address ID (PAID) card. For a start all travellers of trains like Samjhauta Express should be required to carry PAID. All people travelling to border districts should be required to carry PAID. Travelling by government operated transport is not constitutionally guaranteed right. It is a privilege but not right. All privileges come with reasonable restrictions. In starting phase not many will be required to carry PAIDs. In case of Samjhauta Express almost all travellers would have their passport and I thought all passports have at least the address of residence when they were issued. Gradually system should be spread to interior region.

You are writing that ``1/3 of passengers travel without any ticket`` etc. That should stop. Why should such irresponsible behaviour be allowed to continue? If you cannot get PAID you do not travel by trains. The very fact that railways are cheap will be an incentive for getting PAID. Right now voter identity cards are being issued. But a person may not be voting. And it is okay. You want to travel by IR, you get a PAID. Else travel by ox-cart for what I care.

Why Have This Train At All? May be somebody will start a petition to the Mahaan Railway Minister Lallu Yadav of our Mahaan Bhaarat along following lines:

Most progressive nations of world have a means of identifying their citizens and visitors and provide a means for recording the address of their place of residence. This usually is a driver`s license, which grants a privilege to drive a motor vehicle on public roads. This is a privilege but not a right. Any time this privilege can be withdrawn. Most progressive countries have means to record violations of rules of driving motor vehicles and identifying persons and verifying their addresses. Since India does not have universal means of identifying and verifying addresses an introduction of such a system might face wide resistance. But the privilege of using public transport system operated by Central and State Governments for inter-state travel is not a right guaranteed by Constitution of India. Therefore, there is justification in regulating the travel by citizens who want to use State Owned inter-state transport services. One such restriction could be carrying a tamper-proof ``Proof of Identity`` such as a Photo-ID, which also provides current address. Such ``Proof of Identity`` could be a plastic card similar to a credit card which has on it secret markers to thwart its tampering. Some countries have developed technologies for producing such tamper-proof cards.

With this feedback I am requesting for consideration of a future law making it mandatory for anyone who wishes to travel by Indian Railways trains to carry such a ``Proof of Identity``. Initially this may be introduced for journeys to selected destinations only.

Subsequently this may be introduced for all the State Owned public transport enterprises for users of all inter-state travels. Right to travel remains intact because individuals would be entitled to travel by private transport services. But the privilege to use State Owned inter-state transport services will be regulated with rules, which would include carrying a ``Proof of Identity``. In my opinion such a limit on right to travel will not be found unconstitutional by courts.

An Untouchable Apology You cannot do too much for low castes. They have to realize the importance of education. Only reservation is not the answer. Also converting to Buddhism or Christianity or Islam is not answer. Without ``real`` hard work of education and quality work you cannot bring about change in people`s attitude to them. Reservation taints them. People will say that so-and-so is employed in a position because of quota and that he/she really has no talent for that position. The religion change completes (what has not been accomplished fully by the mainstream Hinduism), the process of their alienation.

Re-Imagining Pakistan Jinnah was an old man. He did not have a Nehru, a Sardar and an Ambedkar who could translate his ideas into practical solutions.

As for Islam: it is fiction that it is a single religion. If they cannot find compromise solution of even Shia-Sunni divide then they cannot solve problems modern life on earth is going to throw at them. Islamists are not living on a separate planet. They cannot wish away non-Islamic people. Pakistanis can kill non-Islamic people on their land. But they cannot kill non-Islamic peoples of rest of world. Whatever contribution they made in spreading Greek philosophy and science to Europe does not give them license to kill.

There is no such thing as ``Muslim`` science or ``Muslim`` creativity. There is no such thing as ``Western`` science or ``Western” creativity. Science of antiquity they spread was not ``Muslim``, it was just science. Rise of European science was because of dialogue that happened within Pope dominated Europe which culminated in work of Galileo, Copernicus and Newton.

But even before that St. Augustine had challenged the idea that it is business of religion to dictate how science will work. It was recognized long before Copernicus by Augustine that mixing religion with patently secular aspects of life is going to create trouble in future.

When dissensions arrived in Christian world in the form of Protestant reformation Catholics misbehaved and lost sympathies of significant mass of Christian population. But unwittingly Catholics started scientific revolution by feeling a need to formulate a good calendar.

A practicing Catholic who is also doing science is living a double life made possible by man`s ability at schizophrenia. Same can be said about believers of any other faith. Man is half finished product of evolution. Such schizophrenics will progressively reduce in numbers. That is evolution`s fate. You cannot stop that.