The Barbarians Within The Gates! That dude was relating our insecurity as a result of Indian agression to the Nazi hatred of the Jews.

hahahahahahaha, hilarious.

The Barbarians Within The Gates! The `Isthehad` is workable the minute the People of Pakistan decide to allow the truth to manifest into a proper political entity, not just a facade. The word never is absent from my dictionary. Almost every thing is possible. It will take place.

Since I have time and time again talked about Isthehad, we would have to decide on certain matters view that process of consensus and hence I said `more or less an Islamic state.

Pakistani society is becoming more progressive over the issue of Kara Kori killings. The whistleblowers in our society are indeed letting the public know about the dispicible crime of honor killings. The principle of `equality between all races, sexes, and religions` so far at applicaiton level has NEVER been successful any where in the world. Thats a fact. The Americans ended up displacing over 50 million African Americans and killing 5-10 million in the process. German society fell for Nazism, and we all know about the Jewish pogroms in Poland and Russia. The Inquisition, and the persecution of sertain sects in Great Britain.
The Jews experciened one of their true golden ages in the Kingdom of Granada, a Muslim Kingdom once situated in Spain.

Right now, there is a cesspool of problems brimming in Pakistan. Asking why each one is happening as a random incident is an absolutely incorrect way of looking at it. It has many several factors, one of the major ones being our confrontrations with neighboring India. Mr. Feroz, you are free to believe that India is a made-up boogey man in Pakistan. However, myself, like millions of others Pakistanis, know that it is India and not Pakistan which has been the insulted us time and time again. The illegal occupation of Kashmir, not respecting our borders and intervening in OUR domestic affairs. However, you like myself are free to believe whatever you want.

The insecurity does not come from India? I`m truly flabbergasted to hear this. Please enlighten me how these insecurities have come about? May be because a hegemon is sitting to our east, occupying a province of Pakistan, and it has interfered in our domestic affairs. Who invaded who in 1971? We did the airstrikes, but that was on Indian positions when they crossed the line of control.The problem with us as a nation is that we are plagued with a retrogressive self-proclaimed representatives of Islam on one end, and their neo-liberal secular counterparts. Both are leeches to this nation. The true Muslims must rise and establish the proper Islamic state as perscribed the the Quran. Isthehad ought to serve as an agency of reform and social development. And, our insecurity does revolve around alot of issues, with the greatest being India.

I do not disagree with you on the meaning of democracy. However, we can not import the Anglo-Saxon/European model of democracy in Pakistan and expect it to work. The Bogra formula suggested that, and it failed even before it launched. But that issue was tied once again to our insecurity, which was being flamed by India.

In the defense of the People of Pakistan and myself, Mr. Feroz, please do not insult the People of Pakistan by stating that they suffer from some sort of disease or disorder. Also, I never said that India is the prime issue for are insecurity. Let me reiterate, a lot of different factors have contributed to this insecurity, every bunny knows that. Also, I have read that book and I have taken the VIEWS of the author into account. The League and many of the land-owning families did strike a deal, in which the league promised that it would not take part in any land-reforms, are you not aware of this? Also, books may or may not suggest certain things, but to realize and `buy` what the book is saying something which is my right. I believe that whatever feudal mentality we have in the country, we can eradicate by a process of education and other national programs. Taking away the lands of certain families will not mean the end of feudalism. It`s the mentality which needs to be taken away.


East Pakistan is under the bridge now, however, we may not ignore it and hence I`m going to take into account whatever you are saying. The `feudals` of Pakistan firstly, is politically incorrect. There is some feudal mentality amongst certain people, and we can cleanse that via a process of education and supremacy of judiciary. `Feudalism` is a concept, which can be defeated if we properly fight it via a process of education. Cleanse it out of the minds of the people. Let me ask you a question, if these `feudal` families supposedly do what you say in Pakistan, then, if they were to `earse` the feudal mentality from their minds, would you accept them as proper citizens of our country? Hence, the concept it self needs to be defeated. The Concept of Feudalism needs to be defeated, owning 100 acres or 1000 acres is irrelevant to the equation.

Every bunny knows the the Leagues goal were to stop the reunification of East Bengal and West Bengal, since the East had a Muslim majority. The Lahore Resolution signed at Minto Park explicitly declared the intentions of the Muslim League of India. You may consider reading it. You could also consider reading the Objectives Resolution.
Haroon, please remember; idealism is a virtue, but idealism without knowledge is a self-defeating proposition.

I do not support any of the current Islamic parties in Pakistan. I however am of the opinion that their hearts and minds may be won by a process of enlightened reasoning. A progressive Islamic party is needed, one whose scholars have real degrees and one whose clergy are well-educated sensible people. That my friends is the need of the hour.

Many European clergymen in the Middle Ages came to the Middle East for their higher studies, in order to get a more catholic and well-rounded understanding of the world, religion ,and better academics.

Long live a true Islamic Republic in Pakistan!

The Barbarians Within The Gates! KaalChakra, I do not think the current treatment of minorities in Saudi Arabia is anything special. However, Muslim rulers have generally been much more humane to their minorities than non-Muslim rulers. Only on the subcontinent have there been some instances of barbarianism orchestrated by the Muslims, but thatst he only place where the peculiarity exists.

The Jews expercienced their golden age in Muslim Spain (i.e Kingdom of Granada).

However, India belongs to Indian Muslims and Christians just as much it belongs to the Hindus. The Muslims right now are all native to that land and should have equal rights to the Hindus.

Besides, who is a hindu any ways? Is there a legal definition?

The Barbarians Within The Gates! The notion that religious parties of British India opposed the creation of Pakistan is not absolutely correct.

It is true that some Muslim religious leaders of their parties did oppose the partitioning of the British India, but there were some who also favored the creation of Pakistan.

Is history being molded?

I`ll get the names for ya`ll later.

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) The issue of moving forward however has been accepted by the Hindus. The gravity emitted from all the schools of thought are fundementally different in their approach for Hindustan.

Shiv Sena and Congress agree? The leftist `hindus` agree?

They have only agreed to move forward. The direction was intially laid down by the founding fathers, and the rise of Hindu fantacism, fundementalism, and extremism is manifesting in many different forms. The most common place where it is showing one of it`s many manifestations is in Indian Hindu nationalism.

Every one knows what I`m talking about.

You can not deny this.

:)

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) The issue of modernity is one settled amongst the Hindus?

I feel that is absolutely incorrect.

The Shiv Sena, BJP, RSS, and the Sangh Parivar at large disagree with the concept of modern India completely.

Yeah, I`m sure it settled. Baal Thackerey supporters go running around burning shops and throwing stones at `KFC` on Valentines Day.

The issue of modernity is NOT settled amongst the Hindus.

The Barbarians Within The Gates! Dictionary definition of Feudalism

A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.

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`Feudalism, feudalism, feudalism. I have to hear how bad it is all the time. There are estates in America and Australia, which make the largest Pakistani land-owners seem like dwarfs. Why don`t people pick up the drums and make noise about `feudalism` existing in America and Australia?

It`s quite simple really, because, JUST because you own X acres of land does not mean you are a feudal. Feudalism is a concept. Yes, a concept!

Also, please do not bring up the arguement that when you distribute the land the output increases. Look at America, large farms have a pretty decent output level. The same does not stand for Pakistan, but we can fix it with better problems.

Land reforms should be condemned with vigour. I condemn them completely. A feudal is one who agrees with the philosophy and thought of feudalism. Just having an X amount of land does NOT make you a feudal!

It all comes down to the Judiciary. It should be our weapon to `disarm feudal mentality` from all `segments of our society`. `MaiN theek ho! tum galath ho! tum mujhe se neechey ho` concept has to be completely condemned.

Land-owners should have complete rights over theirs lands, it`s their land after all. Besides, the founding father of the country and the Muslim League made packs with them that their should be no land-reform.

Creation of a seperate judiacary which is potent, will eventually earse whatever feudal mentality our people carry.

Education, Rule of Law, and theism ought to be the main arrows for one to wage a jihad to finish the feudal mentality.

P.S: Mr. Feroz, a response is over-due on the Isthehad issue in Manto`s thread.

Islamic Republic of Pakistan forever! And no to `land-forms`, embrace abolishment of feudal mentality!

The Barbarians Within The Gates! Mr. Feroz, the people of Pakistan more or less favor an Islamic state. Certain elements in the middle class and the upper class have been brain-washed with this anti-Islamic rhetoric.

Islam is embedded in our viens and we as a nation shall never comprimise on it.

The real problem is not `Islam` or `Islam as an agency to usurp power`, the fundemental issue is selective-worship.

Pakistan may easily become into a progressive state built on the principles of equality between all races, sexes, and religions.

Let there be no complusion in religion? That verse sure rings a bell in my air.

An ideal Islamic state would be a `secular` state in nature but not by definition terms.

Once again, I find it extremely silly for people to single out some thing and suggest that it is the crux of the problem.

It all revolves around a multitude of issues, primarily are insecurity as a result of confrontation with our neighbor to the East.

We are a insecure people, as delicate as a hickup and we can easily be aroused in one way or the other.

Pakistan is an Islamic state and that is how it shall proceed. Hold ten plebiscites tommorw and you shall see that the people favor the nature of the preamble of our constitution.

Democracy is all about what the majority thinks, is it not? Or is it what Maulvis and their counterparts ranting and raving about what is right and what is not right?

Take a look at America. Majority of the Christians vote based on their moral, ethical, and social views. A great deal of the times these three stem from their religion, Christianity. Their laws also reflect certain Christian values, but not all of them.

Secularism or no secularism, the people will always vote on the basis of what molds their identity, which in our case is Islam.

Long live ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan!

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) HP, Nehru was a lieing cheat. It is a fact and one can not dispute with it. Jhoota insaan tha woh!

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Pakistan`s creation is a result of the actions of the Congress Party. Nehru was essentially a lieing cheat. Yes, that is what he was. The first Prime Minister of India was a lieing cheat, a dohokabaz, and apparently some of his hypocrisies and lies have become national and engrained in the heads of most Indians. All of his plebliscite ke wanday and promises, the old man took them into the fire when he was cremated.

Any hows, coming back to what I had to say regarding the Congress Party. Congress Party did certain things which alienated the league to such an extent that it was forced to take such a course. Congress had assured the League that it would award the league seats in the provinces in late 1930s. The League did not perform that well and the Congress said that it would live up to its commitments (typical of Nehru mind you), only if the Muslim League DISSOLVED it self. This was a WAKE UP call to the Muslims regarding your supposedly secular Congress`s agressive actions. Acha, another thing, your Congress Fart-e used religious symbols in the late 1930`s and mid 1940`s election. HINDU religious symbols mind you! I could go on and on! The fact of the matter is that Jinnah is the greatest leader South Asia has ever produced.

Nehru the Cheat is no where on the ladder, and Gandhi is almost at par with Jinnah but slightly lower.

Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad!

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Echooboom, how do we compete agaisnt foreign companies and those industrial giants who do take part in non-Shariah methods of banking?(i.e Interest). It becomes alot harder. And, Musharraf has cut down on the corruption, is that not a good thing?

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) I think you all should refrain from name calling and crude remarks. Spoils the discussion!

Echooboom, which political party to you think is the most promising in your opinion?

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Mr. Feroz, the discussion never really was steered in the discussion of application of reforms. You said that Islam has no concept of reform and hence will not allow evolutionary process in respective fields. Naturally I was inclined to present you with a dissenting opinion, substanstiated by facts. Here is what you said ` Reform is impossible in Pakistan and the Muslim world, because the religion of Islam does not allow for an evolutionary process either in intellectualism, politics, legal jurisprudence, social justice, gender rights, or any such topic/subject related to the development of a society. ` That `notion` if you will, is absolutely incorrect in my humble opinion. Islam certainly allows for reform in intellectualism, politics, legal jurisprudence, social justice, gender rights AND every subject/topic related to the development of society. I think any one who knows the concept well is well aware that the Concept of Ithejhad is not a `Theory` but in reality it is not just any fact, it`s THE FACT! Now, Every bunny is aware of the power the Feudal Establishment controls in Pakistan. They themselves use religion to subjugate The People in order to maintain the status-quo or alter it to their benefits. It is the entire system Mr. Feroz which prevents true reforms from taking place. Islam, unlike Christianity, Judasim, and Hinduism, does not put special emphasis on the maulvi. I`m not sure about Hinduism, but I believe that in Christianity and Judasim the way to salvation can be through the Rabbi or the priest. For instance, Catholics believe that the keys to heaven and hell are with the Pope. Islam does not put any such special emphasis on the Maulvi. It is directly a Allah-to-servant relationship, whereas we are the servants of God.

Pakistan`s and Islam`s inability to reform can not be blamed on `Islamis inability to reform` as you proposed. I am absolutely agaisnt that view and I personally feel it is absolutely incorrect. I believe that our current dilema is due to several complexed factors, which have inadvertantly led to our pathetic state right now. The conflict over Jammu and Kashmir with India, 1965 war, 1971 war, nuclear testing, Feudal arms entering into all spheres of life and the insecurity, which has been generated by those actions, has led to this situation. I have not even listed 1/1000 of the factors, which have caused this. I guess we can all come to the agreement that we are a very insecure nation, whose Stock Market or Economic output can go into the red with one hickup from the American-Pakistani relationship.

Insecurity, insecurity, and just about insecurity! This has been capitalized upon by several different establishments, especially the Feudal Establishment.
The `feudal mentality` will have to be earsed from the minds of our industrialists, armed forces, and a multitude of other peoples within the Nation of Pakistan. If the mentality does not go away, Pakistan, Islam, and the well-being of the people themselves are at stake.

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Labor won the elections after WWII and Churchhill was thrown out of power. Had he not been defeated in the election, our independence would be subject to labor coming to power.

Jinnah was so civilized. Wanting to discuss every thing in the courts and in a very controlled-evironment. Whereas Gandhi prefered talking to the masses and taking every thing to mass-level.

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Vivek, why then did your supposedly pious Hindu-dominated Congress party insist on using Hindu religious systems during the elections in late 1930`s and in the 1940`s?

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Kaalchaakra, I`m doing great these days. Spring break is here and I`m headed out of the country alone tonight.

You wrote very eloquently. Firstly, let me ask you this, have you by any chance been reading Eshogi Effendi? You seem to be writting like him.

Secondly, the concept I enumerated is huge, ten volumes could be written on it. I just showed to Mr. Feroz that there is indeed such a concept in Islam. Islamic Jurispudence, and a multitude of other things could hypothetically dealth with under the concept.

And, I do believe that such a council could deal with where we are heading in the future. However, it all depends on whether or not one central Islamic state will ever be created with all Muslim majority nations. Such a state however is not a pre-requiste for this concept to suceed. A more catholic(NOT THE RELIGION) approach towards education reforms in the Middle East would help the people become more open and objective in their approach towards this concept.

Also, take the Organization of Islamic Countries (OIC). It`s impotent in my opinion. Even if a loose Confederation of Muslim states were to be created with a common currency, and certain supra-national institutions, we could be moving towards more legitmacy of whenever a Itijihad is done at mass-level with representatives from every corner of the confederation.

For instance, there is the Hudood Ordinance in Pakistan. It requires that certain amount of `pious` males must give their verdict in support of a female who has been raped otherwise she may be charged with Zina. We can solve this pandora`s box in a jiffy. Do you know how? Simple. Do a International Ithijihad on the issue. Do genetic testing and find out whether or not the Act of Rape took place! It`s simple, it`s logical, and it`s objective.

The major obstacle is the retrogressive self-proclaimed Religious philosopher-maulvis we have. They will never agree to any thing amongst themselves due to the mass political divisions in the past 300 years in general and 100 years in paticular. Also, divisions began aftter the Shite-Sunni contrevery regarding the acession of the Caliph issue.

There are many, many dimensions to the problem and there are too many forces at work. It is hard for us to fully fathom them.