Political Quandary in Pakistan Oh...and my prediction about Short Cut Aziz is as follows:

Considering that Pakistan was one of the few countries in the world that was against the World Bank President automatically being an American, one had to wonder why Pakistan was one of 4-5 countries that took this stand. After all, Pakistan is an American sub-state so it shouldn't have dared uttered a peep in this regard. Well ladies and gentlemen, I think in taking this step Mr Shortcut has tipped his hand as to what he would like to do next.

I think that ShortCut will likely try to make the next round of selections after Robert Zoellick, whom Shortcut just met with by the way, completes his term. Of course, this means that he must have impeccable pro-American credentials...and what do you know...he really does....just gotta keep them up now. I guess this means that he's going to be in no mood to defy the American desire to see the witch take his place.

Political Quandary in Pakistan Sirjee, masadi sahib....where are those hidden social structures you have been alluding to in some of your other posts? While us morons can't hope to see that which is obviously in front of our noses...maybe you can demonstrate the right way as you have so graciously reminded us repeatedly is your (and the members of this "social structure") sovereign domain.

Sirjee...what is the right way? Please elaborate practical steps which are likely to take place rather than speak of building castles in the sky as is the case of so many of the idealists who keep speaking about democracy and institutions. We all read in our own dimwitted way what democracy is and I am sure you could certainly give us a lecture on democracy and the institutions that go with it...but what is actually practical in Pakistan in this next year?

Although I don't belong to one of those hidden social structures of which you are obviously a member, I have a few predictions of my own: Considering that the trouble making judges are now gone and the threat of the amnesty deal being reversed is now gone, Bibi will likely go around loud mouthing as she usually does garnering support from the west and whichever Pakistani fools are willing to follow her. This will likely be done with a wink and a nod between the Americans, Mushy's boys, and Bibi's rats. With all the ducks lined up, Bibi will sell out all those poor idealistic fools who believed that crap about democracy and make a deal with Mushy publicly...of course...the deal will likely have already been executed privately. In the end, what was planned a few months ago will take place; Mushy will be Prez while the Witch (Bibi) will be the PM.

A prediction for a little longer term: Everything will blow up in their faces in less than 24 months. Its just not possible for someone like the Witch (Bibi) to work with others....she tends to complain that everybody didn't move out of the way and didn't give her enough of a chance. We'll all be here still having the same discussion about democracy and institutions and nothing will change.

Musharraf and Alternative #4...oh boo hoo..lets cry over it together.

The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan tahmed32....we see you are very sincere and dedicated to the cause. Please let us know how the rally in Pindi was today and what other protest events you will be participating in.

Musharraf and Alternative Re: Wall Street Journal Article siting Benazir seeking "Street Credibility"

I was under the impression that she had impeccable street credibility...from the street of Hira mandi to the street of Deira in Dubai, Bibi is the highest paid Pakistani prostitute I know of.

We the Silent Majority and the Muslim Fanatics Hey Harish,

I just saw your picture and I must apologize for some of the things I said. You are definitely not a janitor in Dubai….you are at least driver material. In fact, my driver in Dubai looks a lot like you. He’s a little shy and won’t let me take his picture so show everyone, but I swear to God you look just like him. Don’t be offended, you didn’t mention your education in your profile. If you tell me you have a degree, maybe we can get you into a call center after a little training to do something about that “illay illay unda unda popre lay� accent of yours.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance #70...masadi...take a deep breath, a cool glass of water, your medication, and reading the full context of the discussion before taking a small clipping of my post to distort what is being said. Be a little more fair than that and for god's sake...chill out.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance If one were to picture an equally narrow minded stereotype about the secularists of Pakistan one would likely describe them as a bunch of weak sissies who probably went to grammar school and belong to the society in which everyone has screwed everyone else's mother, sister, daughter and aunt. A slut society by any other name is just as bad! How is that for narrow minded Hameed? It goes both ways, so I suggest you try to be a bit more fair to the majority around you rather than make broadly sweeping comments from your lofty position of "enlightenment".

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance Hamidm,

#57, "........ a religious bigot by any name is just as foul ..... anyone who proposes the implementation of barbaric seventh century laws and the establishment of a government based on the model of the abominable four is a jihadi ........ the disguise of scholarship does not hide the suicide belt"

How incredibly closed minded....you my friend are the extremist who wishes to impose his way of life on others. If a maulana did that, he may be taken out with a gunship....I honestly believe that so should people who take the secular position that you do. Its only fair that extremists on both sides should be taken out with equal vigor.

Laddu...you keep talking a lot of crap without any purpose....so if you want to know how a piss drinker like you would fit into society...come meet me somewhere in Karachi and I will give you a full 1 hour lesson.

The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan Masadi...question..yes or no... Are you a Bibi Chamcha? I know of a Masadi who is both a Bibi chamcha and an MQM thug. Are you from the same family?

You keep speaking of social structure and everyone else being a moron...so I guess you must be at the top of that social structure. Please tell us morons what you mean and who you are talking about as being the leader of our democracy? Please dont tell me its Bibi. She probably would have been standing at a street corner at Hira mandi if she weren't born in Zulfi's home. She's now just a high class version of the same thing.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance It is clear that everyone can argue till the cows come home, and it will make no difference since many people will simply remain convinced of their existing beliefs. The things that everyone should take away, in my opinion, are these:

1. Pakistan is a Muslim country and will remain so despite the frothings of the "civil society" secularists. Islam shouldn't be forced on anyone, but neither should the secularist thump their beliefs in the self righteous manner that they do and try to force them upon others. If they do, they should expect what they get just like those who push their Islamic beliefs these days who are termed extremists and usually exterminated with gunships. Secularists can be fanatics and extremists too! The last century should prove that secularists/liberals have killed probably more than any religious group.

2. Terms such as "maulvi" only lump people together, and if we claim to be educated we should be above that sort of thing and be specific about whom we are talking about rather than lumping all people together. If you don't like Islam and don't want anything to do with it, fine...but be respectful as you would expect respect for yourself and your beliefs.

3. Stop finding divisions amongst ourselves and realize that we are being threatened from outside. The Americans are not your friends....they only have "interests". Their war on terror has started with Afghanistan, went to Iraq, the plan for Iran is now in full swing, and does it take a genius to figure out that Pakistan could be under threat? No matter what you believe in, secularism, religion, communism, or any other ism, if you are a Pakistani you should stop the divisions and look at the common grounds that exist and build on them. If you can't find common ground with others that you disagree with, you aren't as civilized or educated as you think you are....even if you are one of the "enlightened" secularists.

4. Ask yourself the root causes of our issues rather than just jump to the easy name calling and assigning blame to the "mullahs". Could it be that someone could have done something to hurt these people of SWAT and caused them to rise up? The US will probably go bankrupt fighting these ridiculous wars and Pakistan is barely even a shadow of the US...we simply cannot afford to ignore reality and squash it with brute violence followed by a well oiled propaganda machine [Fox News].

5. Things will never change in Pakistan unless people find COMMON GROUND!!

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance Well, I'm still glad it was the Islamic Jazba that has protected us all from speaking Russian today and has given you the privilege of being able to be so unkind to the followers of that faith. And if, God forbid, we face violence in our country, lets see how many of you stick around to do something about it. I remember as I kid I, my family, and almost everyone I know contributed in some way or another in the Soviet War and we even know many people who fought in that war. You instantly term any khilafat as a dictatorship without even considering that it may not necessarily be so. You do not even bother to try to take Islam as a basis for further building of our society and institutions...you just want to jump ship and become the white man's "house nigger". What is so wrong with trying to make our religion our own, instead of trying to abandon it and running for another identity?! You can deny it all you like, but thats that privilege they already paid with their lives for. Cherish it while it lasts because it looks like another sacrifice will soon be required and I doubt very much that the secularists will be up to it.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance tahmed,

The full context of #22 is 'Don't mind my saying but it sounds arrogant and self-righteous of you to be saying things like "Think about this before responding. Don't continue to be made a fool." It just assumes way to much about the strength your own argument and doesn't bode well for the enlightened and secular you seem to be aspiring to.' The clipping you are providing in #27 is somewhat misleading. The full quote accuses me of being continuing to be made a fool simply because you are 100% convinced about the righteousness of your argument.


Our discussion began with my saying that the violence we are seeing in our country today should not be termed an insurgency and the people doing the fighting should not necessarily (I repeat, not necessarily) be termed as extremists because they are fighting due to their family members either having disappeared (extra ordinary rendition) or have been "collateral damage" in one of the US lead campaigns against the "Al Qaeda". Their complaints are legitimate and violent suppression is not the answer. Calling them extremists or insurgents only hurts us because we fail to recognize the causes of our disarray.

Also there is no compulsion in religion at all. You can do whatever the heck you want and I did not once say that anyone should care what you do or believe in. Our discussion was about secularists trying to enforce secularism in Muslim Pakistan. The other point in this regard was the fact that it has been the secular parties that has bankrupted Pakistan over the last 15-20 critical years.

Finally, it was the Islamic Jazba that is the reason you and your family do not salute Putin today and it is only fair that you recognize the sacrifices that believing and practicing muslims have made in this regard. Pakistan is a Muslim country and it will be Muslims who will fight for it.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance Dear tahmed,

Don't mind my saying but it sounds arrogant and self-righteous of you to be saying things like "Think about this before responding. Don't continue to be made a fool." It just assumes way to much about the strength your own argument and doesn't bode well for the enlightened and secular you seem to be aspiring to.

#19 - I am referring to the reasons for anger in the SWAT and the other areas where there is an "insurgency". You can argue that Habeus Corpus is secular, but that is not relevant to what I am saying here....it still stands that even the Chief Justice touched upon the injustices faced by these people.

Also, the classic technique of branding all people who believe in religion with the extremist logo because of the actions of a few is just disingenuous. Be fair in your argument and don't use double standards. I will agree with you that Lal Masjid people went too far and should have been brought under control much before...but that is small compared to what the mainstream secular parties have done to this country in the last 15 years.

Ahmad Shah Masood may have been secular himself, but no one can deny that the war was fought as a holy war and those who fought it did so in the name of Islam. For you to deny this is also disingenuous as even Zbigniew Berzinsky, the US National Security Adviser who was responsible for this whole affair has repeatedly stated throughout history that this was an Islamic war and those who fought it did so as mujahideen. Now you are going to deny that it wasn't the Islamic Jazbah that protected us from the soviets? Again, dont mind my saying but that simply cannot be believed by right thinking people.

Then you go on to insult all Islamic scholars by lumping them into one "Maulvi" category and hurl accusations against them of collective guilt for burning video stores and "lording over women". My friend, this is good drawing room talk amongst a bunch of secular buddies having a drink of scotch, but in the real Pakistan you have to make good with the mainstream muslims of this country if you want to go anywhere. Muslims make up the majority of Pakistan and you are kidding yourself to think that anyone will bringing a Kemalist revolution to Pakistan. There would be a bloodbath before that happened.

The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan Shankar,

If you read my post, I am actually saying that I think enmity with India is ridiculous. We have no reason to be beefing up our military for India or anybody else and we should declare unilateral peace with India anyway. I am under no impression that India wants attempt anything on Pakistan, even if you do have plenty of ugly idiots like Harysh who talk a lot of crap.

Aid from the US is based on assistance in the war on terror. That includes extra-ordinary renditions, bombing civilians populations to destroy single targets causing massive "collateral damage" (how would you like calling 9/11 that?). I think that this aid comes at a very high price that no country should pay. The US has indeed become the evil empire and its good people have no idea what their leaders are doing in the name of democracy and freedom. We should ride out the GWB administration and see if the next one isn't such a fanatic born again christian. This war is extremely unpopular in the US also and Bush will likely be villified for the rest of time. Already Cheney is compared to Darth Vader by almost everyone. He is the personification of evil! I would not throw my lot in with these guys.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance # 16; Beneficiaries of Saudi and US$ money were indeed the Muslim forces and it was they who actually fought on the ground and brought massive casualties to the soviets. Money alone would have done nothing. Also, money given to secularists would have done nothing to protect us from the soviets because no secularist group could have put up the resistance that our Mujahids have. They died in the millions for this cause and recognition of that is the bare minimum that I think we can repay them with.

I do not say that secularists are not Muslims, but I say that those who try to push Islam out and force secularism upon all of us should either cut it out, or fight it out and see who really has faith in what they profess to believe in.

My point about Bibi and Nawaz is very valid. Nawaz, Bibi, Altaf...these are the main players in Pakistan's downfall in the last 15-20 years. It has been them who have turned Karachi into a mafia run city and Pakistan into a nearly bankrupt and failed state. These corrupt elements are the mainstream secular parties. Mr 10% (90%) is not known to be a die hard Muslim is he? Altaf the terrorist, is also a secularist isn't he? Now tell me if these three have done more to harm our country in the last 15 years, or some Islamic party...and please do not lump Islamic with all the fanatics such as Osama or Sipa-e-Sahaba. Think in terms of what we could have if we recognized that our strength is in being Muslim and that we must come up with an Islamic way of governance that properly represents us.