Seize The Moment Re: # 150; madani sahib

your post No 139 was absolutely spot on sir ... it is the oldest trick in the corporate world ... make someone from a minority group the 'boss' and it grants a lot of leverage to the 'real' establishment to work with ... then the 'lowlies' don't have much excuse to lard-arse about since 'if he can do it, so can you'!

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 382; St. Tahmed ... various

now sir ... where were we? ... ah .. yes, I remember! I'll make the following points to your interacts, which incidently are large collections of words without much substance ... but I won't want you to have the 1:0 satisfaction!

1 - there are many fine people who openly accept Islam for what it is ... and then "pick and chose" elements that suit their conscience ... they never make big claims of following the Quran or Sunnah or anything in particular ... in fact most people in most religions happen to fall into this category ... the thing is they never 'claim' that their Islam is THE Islam ... they are generally humble about it and get on with life

2 - then there is people like your self .... who claim openly that their Islam is THE Islam .... that is akin to starting a new sect within Islam (hence the St. Tahmed ... if you carry on, you'd be a prophet one day soon) ... these people are smug, arrogant, elitist and consider THEIR interpretation to be the most valid one (ever heard of sectarianism!!) ... the only reason they are not sectarian in the sense that word is understood is that they lack the guts to take on the "establishment" and coccoon themselves to the confort of THEIR Islam ... they are NO LESS self-righteous then the people they supposedly oppose

3 - they also have a strange sense of "right and wrong" that is very different from what has been practiced in the name of Islam for the last 1400 years ... but they still insult their God and Prophet for being completely impotent in preventing any 'distortions' to the very 'original' faith

4 - People like Urstruly sahib are clear on their take on Islam ... which incidently happens to be the same by the "mainstream" over the last 1400 years ... and he has my respect for that

5 - people like hamidm sahib, similarly, don't deny what Islam actually is, they choose to 'pick and choose' knowing well it matters nought one bit if they did or didn't; however they are merely respecting their 'cultural heritage' and do what they do in the interest of "cultural solidarity" .... I personally would describe my self closer to this group ... without the baggage of "faith" of course

6 - I had some respect for your point of view until you started this 'sectarianism' and a sense of self-righteousness .... to me you are no different from the "mullahs" you so despise ... only you don't have the courage to state your inner thoughts in full public view for all to see but hide behind your self-righteousness nevertheless

7 - now please stop sulking like a two year old; I won't apologise to you since I donot believe I said anything disrespectful to you personally ... your 'ideas and faith' are fair game since that is how you present yourself here ... and if I can't disagree with anyone here and put forward my side of the argument, why discuss anything in the first place?

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 373

CORRECTION:

no "the" before allah ... he is unique enough as it is and

...amended (NOT amanded)

apologies

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 372; hamidm sahib

LOL!! ... I take it the question is purely rhetorical? .. we are talking about a goat 'inspired' by the holy spirit here!

Ibn-e-maja has relayed one such hadith where the goat ate some verses related to 'grown women suckling grown men'!! ... which could have brought our "tradition" on par with the Kamasutra!! (alas)

we all know about the "Satanic Verses" ... even mentioned by Tabri ... where the daughters of the allah were denied their legitimate status (no goats were harmed in this one!)

the other one (10 'siparas') is of course related to Ali's 'buzurgi' amongst the 'Salaaf' ....

I'll tell you a little story here .... when Prince Phillip married Elizabeth, the constitution was amanded to grant British citizenship to the prince ... (Greek by birth) ... this amendment has a name but the general public knows it as "shagging the queen"!!

Khuda hafiz

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 370; majumdar

to reject something one needs to know what one is rejecting ... it is only fair

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 367

... go on, since you happen to be an 'angrezi daan', here it is in English:

[In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

HAST thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the army of the ELEPHANT?

Did he not cause their stratagem to miscarry?

And he sent against them birds in flocks (ababils),

Claystones did they hurl down upon them,

And he made them like stubble eaten down!]

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 365; st. tahmed

that wasn't the question Urstruly sahib asked .... you are so fond of distracting from issues and coming up with gobbldegook pseudo-explanations, it is not funny!

what he asked is where do we get the context of 'Surah Al-Fil'? .... the story is hardly explained in detail in that short Surah ... unless I read it wrong? where do we get to know about "Abraha" and his army ... there attack on the Kaaba ... and the "Ababeel" sent down from the skies with nothing but small rocks to throw on the advancing army ... and how the whole 'lashker' was completely destroyed!

[Bismillah-ir-rahman-ir-rahim

1. ''Alam tara kayfa fa'ala rabbuka bi-as-habil-fil


2. ''Alam yaj'al kaydahum fi tadlil


3. Wa-''arsala 'alayhim tayran ababil


4. Tarmihim bihijaratinm min sijjil


5. Faja'alahum ka'asfinm ma" kul]

now you show me where in the Surah above you get the 'legend' in detail? if it is difficult for you to understand arabic, I am happy to provide with a translation ... I just want to see what you make of it first!

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 364

... and as for the 'un-altered' status of the Quran, the following Hadith gives us some historical perspective:

[Bokhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) ..." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. ..." ]

... all Bokhari did was to simply "compile" the existing Ahadith in a book form ... like I said, he did it with utmost sincerity and even included 'Istikhara' as a discriminator! ... those 'traditions' DID exist all through muslim history .. same as the Quran DID exist before being compiled into a book form by Uthman (as we know it) ...

... surely you are not suggesting there was NO Quran in the years of AbuBakr and Umer when it wasn't available in its current book version that we know today?

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 360; bulleya

it is often said that Christ's message was 'hijacked' by Paul and the Christianity that evolved was more a 'Pauline' tradition then had anything to do with Jesus himself ... therefore the muslim stand on this is that the whole 'tradition' ... despite having similarities with Islam, is null and void since the "last and FINAL" message is here

you are making the same assertions regarding Islam ... Mohammed's 'true' message, as stated in the Quran, distorted by the likes of Bokhari ... hence giving rise to a "tradition" which had distorted the 'original' message .... do we then conclude this message has lost its credibility along the same lines as Pauline Christianity? (despite having superficial similarities with the 'original' message via the Quran)

as far your statement re: the 200 years gap... in the days of the "Salaaf" and subsequently, all these "traditions" were incorporated into muslim life/juriprudence etc ... in fact people used to go as far as doing "Istikharas" to 'validate' the 'true' message! Sahaba used to have meetings to 'speculate' what "the messanger of God" would have done under similar circumstances .... apparently every single Hadith in "Sahih" Bokhari was included only after a positive 'Istikhara' by the man .... those heresay 'traditions DID exist and got passed down the generations ...

.... don't make up/distort history to "delude" yourself and create a make/believe reality that only convnices one person ... because you don't have the courage to call a spade a spade

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 355; pinku mian (or bibi ... as the case may be)

[[discussing Islam???]]

I thought this article is about the gobbldegook called hindooism; no?? so how come it is Islam that is always 'discussed'?

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 345; hamidm sahib

as far as my reading of the Good Book (the Quran) goes, there is absolutely no mention of the "sunnat-e-Ibrahimi" in that ..... I'd be more than happy to stand corrected by the Ulema-e Karaam here .... including those almost canonised souls such as St. Tahmed (may Allah's peace and blessing be upon him)

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 340

PS ... from Prophet Mohammed's last sermon too:
"“O People! No Prophet or Apostle Will Come after Me and No New Faith Will Be Born. Reason well, therefore, O People! and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QUR’AN and my SUNNAH (i.e., sayings, deeds, and approvals) and if you follow these you will never go astray. "

very clear to me that it is QURAN AND SUNNAH and neither on its own ....

... I don't have an issue with people following any religion but when they try to distort its meaning to cater for their own individual sensitivities, they are being dishonest .. with everyone, including themselves

like hamidm sahib says be a cultural muslim... with no refernce to "faith" ... I don't have an issue with that whatsoever ... it is part of one's heritage

but these apologists are trying to adhere to a modified 'faith' which is different .... I wouldn't be surprised (as hamidms's ealier assertions) that some of them are mirzais! ... in my limited experience mirzais do emphasis the QURAN more than anything else .. including Prof Abdus Salam (who I have a great deal of respect for) who use to quote the book left, right and centre

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 331; dost sahib

you are absolutely right .... there are no examples throughout muslim history where Quran was taken as a guideline in its own right without the Sunnah .... this "Quranism" is a recent phenomenon and would only last as long as it takes for some strong minded to present its flaws in similar details as the apparent embarrasing nature of the Hadith literature

the whole argument is astounding!! first we have a God who sends out 'messages' through jewish prophets ... these messages get tampered with (against the WILL of God!!) and he ends up chosing an arab to relay the 'same' message (also the 'final' edition .. apparently!!) ... initially it was "un-alterable" ... then some geezer called Bokhari comiples a whole bunch of embarrassing stuff and uses some Sahaba and Ummahaat-ul-momineen (most prominent being Ayesha) to justify his 'statements' .... the whole Ummah follows them until in the 20th/21st century a few 'westernised' muslims com up with "Quranism" .... apparently history got it wrong again! ... God's message (even the perfect and final one) got tempered with yet again!!

Is there no end to the impotence of this God????

History and Origins of MQM Part II Re: # 83
[[This same man (assume he is Muslim) will readily admit that Prophet Muhammad was completely illiterate (and THIS is again a grand lie).]]

of course it is a lie! .. with all due respect Prophet Mohammed WAS NOT an illiterate ... he contributed immensely to arabic literature and his writings have come very close to being all time best-sellers

I suppose that is exactly the point you were trying to make too ... this myth needs to be dispelled ... I for one feel very strongly about it

Khuda hafiz

History and Origins of MQM Part II Re: # 79; nkg sahib,

actually Tahir sahib has a lot of good things to share, not to forget the humour and satire .... unfortunately he gets side-tracked by his own arguments at times

he hasn't been interacting here for a bit ... I hope all is well Tahir sahib

Are the Converted Tribals Really Hindu? Re: # 139

.... btw , why did you change your name??