Hajj, My Broken Dream Re: # 57

(Ref) Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk (History of Prophets and Kings), popularly known Tarikh al-Tabari

Hajj, My Broken Dream [[..... People have every right to perform their religious obligations with peace of mind, absolutely not by being traumatized and being tortured at the hands of Saudis.....]]

hajj was always used for the purpose of business and the Meccans have always had a monopoly of sorts as to what happens with the proceeds .... it should hardly be a surprise ... it was big business in pre-islamic days too where the tribe of Quresh in general, and Abu Sufiyan's household in particular, benefitted from the trade and revenue it generated in pre-islamic times ... this was the main contention the Quresh had with Prophet Mohammed when he introduced the concept of 'no god but Allah' ... it meant the first thing to go would be all the revenue (as the Hajj revolved around mainly the three goddesses al-lat, al-manat and al-uzzah); hence Abu Sufiyan offered Mohammed a deal ... if he (Mohammed) would approve (somehow and in any capacity) the intercessary powers posessed by Al-Lat, Al-Manat and Al-Uzzah ... the three goddesses the Hajj customs revolved around ... then Mohammed would be offered a position within the ruling council of Mecca ... this is where the controvertial 'Satanic Verses' come into play ... initially Mohammed conceded (or appeared to) since the verses in question suggested that the three goddesses were 'exalted birds' whose intercession to reach the main God (Allah) is quite desirable ...

... this didn't sit well with many Sahaba (companions of Mohammed) who considered it rather self-contradictory for the cause, and legend also has it that Hind (Abu Sufiyan's wife) approached the prophet privately and essentially didn't want a compromise on the issue (contrary to her husband's wishes) ... Mohammed retracted the controvertial verses and labelled them from 'satan' and not from Allah ... hence the 'Satanic Verses' ... this is well documented in 'al-Tabari' which is considered an authentic text (including by most Muslims) where Mohammeden/Islamic history is concerned

after the fall of Mecca, hajj was re-instated, again the main attraction was the trade and influence it generated, not forgetting a focus point around which the arabian tribes could be unified as 'one entity', i.e., the 'ummah' as we know it ... and it worked

so there you have it Zeena ji .... do hajj by all accounts, but the so-called hardships are perhaps a part and parcel of the 'spirituality' you refer to ... and as for the 'Meccans' (extrapolate now to include most Saudis), they were like that before Islam and they will remain the same after Islam ... don't forget most Meccans only accepted Islam under duress and again as part of an up and coming political movement ... the 'spirituality' stuff is simply to 'keep things going for the peasantry' as it were, since this brings everything and everybody to a focal point so to speak

even Iqbal (the great pan-islamist) used the same old 'unifying' spirituality revolving around the centre point of 'haram shareef' when he wrote:

"aik hoN muslim haram ki paasbani ke liye;
neel ke saahil se le ke ta ba khaak-e kashghar"

very potent stuff!!

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 658; pukhtoonji

I know and am friends with a fair few people on chowk (most I am honoured to know; on both sides of the wretched 'Radcliffe line') ... but it is not based on group dynamics

may I recommend attempting to answer some of the queries that arise from it? .. if not for 'chowk' then for ourselves (most seem quite legitimate to me) ... otherwise let's stick to reforming ourselves based on scientific grounds like we set out to do ... which brings me back to what I was saying before

take care and Good Luck!

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Dost ji ... welcome back sir!

Is The Cheque In The Mail? pakhtoonji No 603

my 'phhans gaye' was something to do with majumdar bhai's peculiar form of interactions (at times) and not what you might have said!

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 567

LOL!!! pakhtoonji phhans gaye!

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 565; PJ

[[Abusive language is common on the internet, for obvious reasons.]]

true ... and one has to be able to take it in one's stride ... regardless of the source ... that is exactly the point I was making before :) ... my policy has been to read and respond to what interests me and ignore the rest ... and frankly I get more ticked off by religious identity issues (sometimes leading to having soft spots for the extremists) of Pakistanis than anything the Indians write here (a few exceptions of course)

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 563; majumdar

yes of course ... how could I forget the 'eastern wing'!

thanks :)

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 561

*biggest

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 558

and as for education ... LOL ... education is the bigegst problem in my opinion ... what type of education??

the educated classes in Pakistan are some of the most fanatical when it comes to religious identity ... you obviously don't frequent other sections of this site and don't get to hear/read what our educated brethren have on offer! ... for starters, every female relative of mine has been interefred with in words on this site for writing what I write! ... it either escaped you or you got distracted by the hindutva issue

what do you say to the conspiracy theory ridden TV anchors in Pakistan?? ... are they not educated?? ... what about school/college /University teachers?? ... and what do they teach?? ... they teach people WHAT to think and never HOW to think

incidentally the person who had the most influence on me, and introduced me to rationalism at an early age, was a grand-uncle of mine .... and he was completely illiterate!

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 557

I'd rather not have a Jinnah vs Gandhi discussion .... but stacks of westerners wrote stuff about Gandhi and not Jinnah, yet you fixate with the one whose conclusion came the closest to your own?

Which Indian PM took the trouble to travel to Karachi and lay a wreath on jinnah's tomb?

Is The Cheque In The Mail? and as for the religious fanatics becoming a footnote in history, .... now that may be wishful thinking on the part of some ... sadly its far from reality

religion is big business ... and it is very much an up and coming force ... I wouldn't be surprised if it does take over the entire world in a not too distant future ... and believe me it is not going to be hinduism/buddhism type land-based faiths ... but mainly christianity and islam ... that are more global ... curretly this is being played out in china ... where the up and coming middle classes are joining protestanism (as they equate it with westernisation and sucess) and the peasantry is being sold islam (for what it might have to offer to the poor) ... and both are the fastest growing religions currently

its the last frontier, and to underplay it we do at our own peril

Is The Cheque In The Mail? GF and pukhtoonji,

we'd never reach consensus on this and its not in our interest to go down this discussion .... if you are rferring to chowk Indians, majority are not Indian residents and say things just to spite ... any fool can see beyond that

as for the jaswant singh business ... in fact most hindutvavadis would be Jinnah-loving and Gandhi-bashing .... and based on that alone I conclude the opposite ... what jaswant wrote is nothing new ... hindutva goons are happy they are not lumbered with an additional 170 million muslims to deal with in India ... hence they all LOVE Jinnah (who was an opportunist in my opinion)

anyhow ... each their own ... you guys can use your energies to what matters to Pakistan in a more immediate sense ... or get tied in futile conversations about what is more distant (in terms of urgency)

believe me, it is enticing and tempting to play tit for tat oneupmanships here, for the sake of temporary gratification and get a sense of self-worth (I have boils then so have you ... haha) ... but that is not the purpose of my presence here

baaki aap ki marzi

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 549

... quite frankly what happens in India doesn't concern me at all ... it is their business ... if anything, if hindutva creates such havoc in India as the taliban et al have done in Pakistan, it could indirectly be considered good for Pakistan

whereas the scourge of the islamist literally knows no bounds ... because of the global nature of 'the ummah' concept

even as late as Jan/Feb 2009 there were more protests in Lahore about Palestine ... hardly any about what was going on in Swat ... such is the potency of this nonsense

you can choose to make it your business by crying 'same-same' as tahmed and many others do, day in day out ... from my perspective, it DEFINITELY IS NOT THE SAME

Is The Cheque In The Mail? Re: # 547; pukhtoonji

with all due respect, tahmed sahib's perspective is way too one sided

like dost ji said, no one in India will be persecuted/tried (legally) for saying all sorts of stuff about hinduism/hindu gods etc

in pakistan, it is part of law of the land

yes, in practice on both sides law is often taken into people's own hands but in Pakistan YOU certainly cannot openly say what you and I have been saying on this site

besides, the worst hindutva could do is what may be bad for India (though the progress in Gujarat seems to go against that theory) ... there is no global 'ummah-hood' for hindus

whereas the global significance of what muslims do (or could do) should not be underplayed

its better to stick to your original stance against religion rather than getting involved in taliban vs hindutva ... my two cents worth

Cricketing Blues Re: # 7; majumdar

incidently India lost to SL! ... see, the opportunities are endless!

must be the diet and nutritional deficiencies etc

kuchh khaya piya kijiye :P